[q3k]

On the other hand, VMs are wasteful resource-wise (and $$$-wise) and have a much larger operational overhead (suddenly for every deployment you have a different Linux installation, with its own root /, with its own configuration drift, which you have to manage separately via CM).

[kijin]

To be fair, containers often end up being its own Linux installation with its own configuration drift. So many dockerfiles mindlessly pull in an entire Ubuntu system just to run a simple app.

[q3k]

But the image [1], once built, is still idempotent. You can deploy it and it will always contain the same configuration and code.

Meanwhile, a month-long Ubuntu VM that has received regular CM pushes (including system updates) will likely vastly differ from a branch new Ubuntu VM and a single CM push. To the point, where you can't be sure anymore that your current CM config will even work on a brand new machine, unless you're regularly testing that.

[1] - Yes, Dockerfiles do not make for reproducible builds - but once an OCI image is built, its deployment going to be reproducible. And there's more ways to build images than via Dockerfiles - some of which solve this problem (using Nix or Bazel, for example).

[inetknght]

> But the image [1], once built, is still idempotent. You can deploy it and it will always contain the same configuration and code.

VMs can be idempotent too. It's just that traditionally people attach storage to it. But VM snapshots are a thing.

> To the point, where you can't be sure anymore that your current CM config will even work on a brand new machine, unless you're regularly testing that.

The same can be argued about attached storage to a container.

[wejick]

By idempotent do you mean immutable?

[starfallg]

That same issues exists with docker containers. You can also build a pipeline to deploy very barebones VMs that contain the kernel, a barebones userland and the application. Use KSM to minimise memory usage. What you get with containers is a shared page cache and reduced context switching.

Once upon a time in tech, the thinking was hardware is cheap, technical staff is expensive, hence we moved on to systems and programming languages that saved us time at the expense of efficiency on the hardware.

20 years on, the cost equation hasn't changed. In fact, its probably shifted drastically towards the extremes. We'd likely save more energy by eliminating crypto mining than moving all VMs onto containers.