[Hamuko]

>There’s no such this as “overtime” in most salaried jobs though. You’re paid just for being an employee, not for hours worked.

If there's no concept of overtime in most salaried jobs, there's a problem with your country as well.

I'm a salaried, full-time employee and I'm paid to work 37.5 hours a week, no more, no less. And the collective agreement for IT services industry (which is what concerns me as a developer) dictates that 40 hours/week is the maximum.

If you want to read our collective agreement, you can find it here: https://tietoala.fi/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/TES__englanti... Working hours are on page 19 (21 on the PDF).

[treis]

And you probably get paid 1/3 to 1/2 of what a developer in the US can make.

The reality of the world is that if you're the lead developer for some product you will have times that you need to work off hours. Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday".

It's a balance. You shouldn't routinely be working a ton of nights and weekends. But sometimes shit hits the fan at inconvenient hours and you need to respond. If not, you have to have routine 24/7 coverage which gets really expensive really fast ultimately leading to lower salaries for developers.

[theshrike79]

If shit hits the fan, the company should be prepared to pay for it.

If not, then clearly the shit hasn't actually hit any fans and I can keep relaxing on my free time.

Many times companies and clients like to pretend there is an emergency that needs extra hours, but if there is a price tag attached, the urgency disappears really fast.

Overtime is a mutual contract in Finland. The employee can't just decide to do overtime for extra pay (usually 150-200% hourly rate), neither can the company order an employee to do overtime hours. Both agree how many hours are needed and what should be accomplished by working extra hours.

I can _voluntarily_ work longer hours and "bank" those, I'm also free to use my banked hours at a time of my choosing or be compensated for those hours with money. For example I can do 9 hours from monday to thursday and leave at noon on friday for a nice long afternoon/evening with my family.

[ingvul]

> Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday".

It depends. If it's the first time production is down and I'm already off, I fix the issue. Once it's fixed I'll tell my manager: "we need on-call people. Please don't consider me for that position because I value more my free-time than money. Thanks". The second time production is down, I won't fix it.

If they fire me because I don't do on-call, then again it depends. I would revisit my contract and if it doesn't say anything about being on-call I would point that out. In any case, I would start to look for a new job asap.

[container]

I wouldn't start too much speculation around a comment that started with 'probably'. But in any case, I'm also a Finn, and my contract also refers to that agreement. Still, I don't think I even know anyone who just drops what they're doing when their hours are up for the day or the week. It seems that everyone's working around the clock, even on weekends and holidays. And just like you would expect by now, people take pride in it and boast about it too. Sure, that's pathological, but I really can't even imagine working 9 to 5 and then disconnecting for the rest of the time, union or not. I think you're considered exceptional in Finnish IT if you can do that.

[davidgay]

> It's a balance. You shouldn't routinely be working a ton of nights and weekends. But sometimes shit hits the fan at inconvenient hours and you need to respond. If not, you have to have routine 24/7 coverage which gets really expensive really fast ultimately leading to lower salaries for developers.

The not-uncommon answer to this is an oncall rotation, where you are paid at some fraction of your full-time salary, to respond to such problems.

The fraction likely works out better than 'overtime' pay, as it's for all the time you are oncall, not just when some issue occurs.

[ciceryadam]

Yup exactly, if I'm on emergency calls, I get payed 10% of my base hourly to be available, online in 15minutes and ready to solve issues. As soon as I get a call during this time, it's overtime (125% of hourly pay, bonuses for weekend/night calls). If I'm on holiday I'm out for the company, but I'm there for colleagues. With this system did daily rotations and weekly rotations, both lengths have their pros and cons.

[IanCal]

> Like if production is down how can you say: "My 40 hours is up this week, I'll look at it on Monday"

"Tell whoever is on call to deal with it"

[colejohnson66]

It is a balance. But the point GP is making (it seems) is that if “shit [does] hit the fan,” you should be paid overtime for it, not have it be part of your job. It’s a cultural difference really.

[treis]

It doesn't really work because the incentives become misaligned. It becomes a good thing for workers to have things go wrong and for them to be inefficient with their time. Organizations end up much less flexible because they then don't trust their workers not to milk them.

Ultimately it changes from paying someone to get a job done to paying them for hours worked. Anyone that's hired a plumber knows that you get far faster and efficient work in the first situation.

[Hamuko]

I get full pay for a sick day and I don't have a cap on sick days. And yet, I have not called in sick in the last two years.

Just because people could do something, doesn't mean that they will do it. The people at our company do not spend all of their time making the system more unreliable so that they'd be paid more to be on call. Hell, if you asked the developers, most of them would probably love to spend more time making the system more reliable, but the bosses usually want developers to add more features.

[scarby2]

This! I hate the perverse incentive that many americans try to push about sick leave, overtime etc. The truth of the matter is that most people actually want to do their job. Do people abuse sick leave - yes, but it is certainly the minority of sick days taken.

In fact leave is undervalued as a concept by most US employers/employees, various studies have found that workers who take more vacation and work less hours are healthier and more productive. Some progressive companies are starting to learn from this (I spoke to a travel technology company a while ago who will fund you to take a 2 week trip out of the country every year).

[theshrike79]

This. It used to be normal to be pride of your craft. You do your best because that's what you do.

Now it seems that true craftsmen are the exception now, people are just hustlers in it for the money. Do it as cheap and fast as possible, bill fas much as you can and off to the next job.

[bonzini]

And instead in the US case it becomes a good thing for companies not to bother about employee well being and for them to be bad at allocating the employee time. Organizations end up much less efficient because, after milking their workers too much, they leave and the high turnover means higher onboarding costs.

Ultimately there's also a moral aspect of whether the employer owns the whole life of the employee or they are on a more balanced relationship. Anybody who's had to endure micromanagement knows that you get far more engaged and efficient work in the latter situation.

[Afton]

I don't think this comment deserves the downvotes it got even though I disagree.

Consider your example: If you pay a tradesperson to 'do a job' you should expect that they will cut every corner available to them that isn't in the contract. If you are paying for time, you might expect them to do a more thorough job. Which is better depends on a number of factors.

[jfk13]

The risk of paying for time is that the worker may deliberately (or even subconsciously) take longer than necessary to get things done.

[bonestormii_]

That's crazy, IMO. This view supposes that the workers simply extract wealth from the company, rather than exchanging wealth for their time, which also has innate value to the worker.

Per this view, if a worker worked 100% of their time, they would have achieved their optimum goal of extracting the most wealth possible. But nearly all people who have made that trade would tell you they are depressed, feel run down, and probably think about blowing their brains out on a regular basis.

At some point, the plumber wants to go home, too. Now, maybe it's true that they'll take 1 hour to complete a job at a comfortable rate rather than the fastest-possible rate of 45 minutes, and maybe 4 jobs get completed that day instead of 5 as a result. But it is also true that the 4 jobs may be done with a greater attention to detail. Ever have a maintenance worker track filth into your residence with reckless abandon? What is the value of a more rested, present, and thoughtful worker?

You may argue that for a plumber, there is no value added in that. But I would argue that the value is there, even though the business owner can't extract it as revenue. It is there in the quality of the work, the happiness of the worker, and the happiness of the customer. It makes for a better world, and if you value your employees and customers as people, you'll see that interests are aligned.

All of that said, the economy is a thing. If your business is in a highly competitive market, it's easy to wind up with thin margins in a race to the bottom. But if that's the case, is it not the responsibility of the business management/ownership to either find a way to be competitive short of exploiting workers, or otherwise exit the market and pursue another venture?

At the lowest level, workers will be trained for and work the jobs that are available to them, and the jobs available will be dictated as a function of the the local demand for that service or product. If a small, poorly run, exploitative plumbing company can't find the margins to operate because they are competing with better services, they should cease to exist. The demand will remain the same, and their exit from the market place will result in growth for their competitors, and the jobs will be recreated.

If you are a plumber by trade and run your own plumbing company and can't find a way to exist without exploiting your workers, you should exit the market as a business owner and work for another company. Otherwise, your business isn't plumbing, but exploitation itself.

[efdee]

If you pay someone to get a job done, that sounds like a contractor. If you pay someone for their hours worked, that's a salaried employee.

[jfk13]

Actually, I think there are three categories, not two.

If you pay someone to get a job done, that's a contractor.

If you pay someone for their hours worked, that's an hourly-waged employee.

If you pay someone a salary, you're paying them to spend their working time, which will typically be around 35-40 hours a week but is not strictly defined or measured, attending to your business needs in whatever ways are agreed between you. It's a quite different relationship, based on a different level of expectations and trust.

To give a specific example: I'm a (European-based) salaried employee of a (US-based) company. Most weeks I spend rather more than 40 hours, one way or another, working on things for my employer, as I (mostly) enjoy my work and want to make the best contribution I can. Sometimes personal stuff comes up, and I may end up spending significantly less, but no-one's keeping track at that level on a day-to-day basis. I don't expect extra money if I work into the evening to finish something I'm involved in, nor do I expect to lose money if I spend the afternoon taking care of a family emergency.

I have in the past had a time-card that I punched when arriving at work, and again when leaving, and my employer paid me for the hours I worked; no more, no less. I'd call that "wages". My current employer pays me an agreed annual sum; it does not depend on the total number of hours I work during the year, but it comes with an expectation of how I will spend my time and expertise. That's a "salary".

[GoblinSlayer]

Workers can destroy the system due to incompetence too, then they are just fired as incompetent, i.e. you need to deal with this anyway.

[ytwySXpMbS]

Well yes, everything is hunky dory if you work in an atypically well paid industry. It’s still a problem for the rest of the country, I imagine teachers aren’t too happy about unpaid overtime for instance.

[908B64B197]

At 1/2 1/3 the pay, I can't really see why a dev would work more than 30 hours a week. Especially if there's no stock comp.

[bonzini]

Paid time off, paid paternity leave, decent retirement paid by the employer, world class single payer healthcare and paid sick days, no at-will work, affordable childcare, don't have to set up a college fund for my sons' education when they're born, etc. etc.

[Frondo]

> Like if production is down how can you say...

Come on, man, it's not your company and if they're not paying you for that time, it's not your responsibility. Volunteering your time for someone else's business? Is this really what you want to do with your life?

[colejohnson66]

The unfortunate reality is that most people don’t have a choice. If they refuse the work, they’re fired because it’ll be easy to find someone who will do the work even during off-hours.

[Symbiote]

Is the American developer happier in life than the Finn? Do they have time to enjoy all that extra money?

The 40 hours is averaged over several weeks (normally). You can have an extra 3 hours, but leave work at lunchtime the next day.

[treis]

The American developer can retire in 1/3 to 1/2 the time of the Finn. And yes, I'd say working a bit more for that is an obvious yes.

[bvcvbuiy]

The obsession of American developers with retirement tells a lot about what they think about their jobs.

[treis]

As if 95% of Europeans wouldn't quit their job tomorrow if they won the lottery.

[bonzini]

Winning the lottery is not the same thing as not having a work-life balance for 30 years (I don't know anyone who retired before 55).

[drstewart]

>The obsession of American developers with retirement tells a lot about what they think about their jobs.

Funny how Europeans are crowing in this thread about how Americans need unions for better pay, but when Americans say they have better pay Europeans just say Americans are obsessed with money.

The obsession with Americans tells a lot about what Europeans think of their system

[bvcvbuiy]

The people who mention unions have in mind better rights for employees not better pay (no one seriously thinks SV developers need better salaries).

[lostlogin]

I think you have replied to the wrong comment.

[gorbachev]

It depends.

You can't, if:

1. you have a chronic illness that requires a good healthcare plan to be treated affordably

2. you have a large family

3. your student debt is larger than average

4. you have a large mortgage

5. your have other financial liabilities you can't afford to handle without good paying job

6. you have no retirement savings or they are insufficient

Items 1, 2, 3 and 6 are non-issues in Scandinavian countries.

[efdee]

Are you saying American developers retire around 40-50yo?

[buran77]

I think the problem is usually overtime is interpreted as time doing extra work, not time to finish the work you were expected to finish anyway. The company can claim you were unproductive and probably has an easier time proving this that you have proving otherwise.

Most companies try to extract the most value from their employees and this may mean overloading them and they use "industry benchmarks" to set the bar for what you're expected to deliver. Those are very debatable but effective in supporting their point.

Then in the bulk of the push comes from incentivizing people to do overtime by offering promotions, bonuses, good projects only to those who go above and beyond. Refusing overtime may not only be received with a lack of incentives but with concrete disincentives like getting the really nasty activities and treatment. If you're building a career, want the position, or want/need the higher pay, you'll do it. Depends on the company, the job, the person.

[Viliam1234]

> Most companies try to extract the most value from their employees and this may mean overloading them

Exactly this. If managers notice that your team is doing everything on time, they will remove a member or two from your team, until you can barely meet the deadlines. Then they get a bonus for reducing the company costs.

It requires some experience to realize that it is not your fault if the deadlines are in danger. That is system working exactly as intended. But of course the company will pretend it's your fault. That is also system working exactly as intended. (In USA, this results in you doing a lot of overtime. That is also system working as intended. The urgent situation is not something unexpected; it happens every year in every project, it is a part of the plan.)

[texasbigdata]

You guys unioned as a cross company group of 1 (or several closely related) functional roles? That’s super interesting! Do any entry level people NOT accept membership to the union or undercut in any way? Do you require your employee to be a “union” shop to work there?

I think it’s beautiful your vacation hours are set out, etc.

It seems like there could be some issues if every vertical had one of these (“oh no, the real estate team has 7 weeks of vacation but the HR team only has 2?”) but outside of that it’s beautiful what y’all did as a collective entity. This is super eye opening, thanks for sharing.

[SuoDuanDao]

I think part of the reason this works so well in Europe is because guilds have been around for a long time, and there's a sense in which they also look out for the quality of work their members put out. There's an implication of providing training to junior members and serving the public that give a depth to the organisation beyond a charter of 'we negotiate for the highest pay the market will bear'

[Hamuko]

Joining an union in Finland is voluntary but most collective agreements are just that - collective. They apply whether or not you're in the union for the entire sector. I think most Finns belong to unions though.

[notkaiho]

Depends a bit on age groups but membership is still pretty high [0].

The collective point is critical - unions negotiate wages as part of a tripartite arrangement in Finland. It's industry-wide sets of wages.

[0] https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9036556

[talentedcoin]

This sort of thing makes the (Canadian) hair on the back of my neck stand up. I can see a collective agreement for a govt employees, or for a specific set of trades within an industry. But for an entire sector?

As others in the thread have pointed out, these types of arrangements don't always correspond to the reality of the business. If you are, for example, paid a yearly bonus, then the concept of "unpaid overtime" doesn't really apply.

[ciceryadam]

In here that only means a guaranteed minimal salary, agreed upon yearly by the tripartity (government, employers union, employees union), jobs are classified into 8 categories. Higher category means higher guaranteed minimal salary, but it is most of the time payed better than that, so this is usually below market rock bottom. Examples are: 1st category is kitchen helper, 2nd is janitor, 3rd barber, 4th nurse, 5th preschool teacher, 6th network admin, 7th dentist, 8th CFO. IT jobs are category 4-8.

[Mauricebranagh]

Wouldn't go down very well in UK M&P unions

I recall a delegate at my Union conference getting very upset at the thought that our members where such low grade / status employees

The Uk is possibly different that no fixed hours has a district class / social status.

Interesting to see a eu style agreemnet

[geodel]

Don't know specifics about you. But officially/legally fixed hours comes with list of measurable tasks that must be completed by certain time. Now in most places I worked things invariably get delayed due to vendors, other teams, servers, network issues and so on. When issues are finally resolved one is expected to complete allocated task in 'extra' time. Saying that my 35 hours are over is not gonna cut in my experience. Even for highly demanded skills this kind fix hour negotiations is not possible for an individual employee or contractor.

Besides one can't really compare IT jobs in UK and USA. In UK they are generally at lower end of pay and reputation compare to US.

[GoblinSlayer]

Granted, in USA you're paid 10 times more than in the rest of the world.

[bonzini]

Not really. Italy has abysmal IT wages, a 30.000 euros wage in Italy is probably for roles that would get an 80.000$ salary in the US. That's not even 3x but then:

* there's 7% extra that is paid as a lump sum when you change employers, and 33% paid into a retirement account (vs. perhaps 20% for a 401k; employer/employee proportion of 25-75 vs. 50-50 for 401k matching)

* you don't enter work with any debt, because university is paid by the state if you're poor. I have seen directors from America (easily $200k salary) saying they can't afford a vacation in Europe because they have two sons/daughters in grad school.

* you don't have to pay for healthcare (and taxes are comparable for lower income tax brackets). If you have a child, pregnancy+delivery costs €0.00.

* nowhere in Italy are you going to have a real estate market as crazy as Silicon Valley

* childcare will cost 150-500 euros a month depending on age vs 1000-3000$ in the US

Putting everything together, maybe you're paid twice as much. Go to Germany or Finland and there's even less difference.