[b0afc375b5]

Not sure if this was already argued elsewhere as I understand that monica gets posted here frequently, but on the readme:

> This project is for people who have hard time remembering details about other people's lives - especially the ones they care about.

My argument is, if you actually cared for someone, wouldn't you take the effort to remember everything about them, rather than saving it in a social relationship database?

I've tried something similar to this during my college days. I painstakingly inputted all my phone contacts to google contacts. I searched their facebook for their birthdates, what university they were attending and what degree they were studying.

Looking back at it now, that was a tremendous waste of time. I've met maybe 1000 people in my lifetime, I could count in my ten fingers the people I care about. Can people actually care about other people, AT SCALE, to the point where you would need an app for that? I've read in other comments, one case in particular, where an uncle kept a spreadsheet of facts about the people he cared about, and that many people went to his funeral. So fine maybe people do need something like this to scale personal relationships.

My other argument is that this FEELS ungenuine, and I'm not sure how else to explain it. Saving your friend's child's birthday in a database just so you can say that you remembered vs actually remembering their birthday; I feel like there is a huge gap between the two. I would rather have 1 genuine relationship, rather than 100 superficial, inauthentic relationships.

What do you think?

[hisnameisjimmy]

I totally get this thinking, but I am oriented totally differently from you. I will forget my friend's birthdays, their kids names, their wife's names, things they've talked about recently, etc, etc. I have a terrible memory for this stuff. I'm not sure if it's just me being stubborn, but all of these things just feel very slippery to my mind. On the other end, I will remember in vibrant detail very trivial facts that have no real function for me. Does that mean I care about trivial facts more than my friends? I hope not.

I think of it like this. I don't pay attention to lyrics in most music, I pay attention to the feel/tune. With friends, it's all about emotional connection, not my ability to recall facts. I honestly don't think one or the other is better or worse, it's just different. People show care differently.

For me, who has trouble with things that people often associate with caring (like yourself maybe), this acts as a crutch to help me show caring in a way that other people recognize but that isn't natural to me. I would actually argue that me investing into a program like this actually shows just how much I care that I want to make up for my natural capability with a pretty involved program.

Another side benefit, it's also really nice for acquaintances that you really want to keep up with, but because of irregular correspondence they are very easy to slip from memory.

[vonseel]

You won't forget the names when it matters.

If you can't remember these basic details, it's a sign that person is not close enough to you for it to actually matter.

Or, maybe you're like me and you just met the person five minutes ago. Either case is forgivable.

[Volundr]

I'm afraid your experience is not universal. There are plenty of people I care very deeply about, yet Facebook reminding me of their birthdays is a godsend. Children I do somewhat better with, but names are always a struggle for me. A friend had triplets a couple months into the pandemic, and I'm still struggling there. Meanwhile a the drop of a hat I can bring to mind some technical detail that I heard once a decade ago and never used.

People's minds work differently, just because something comes easily to you does not mean it does to everyone else.

[vonseel]

Maybe, I just feel like it shouldn't matter for anyone if you remember their kids names, unless it's your brothers or sisters kids or your own kids. Not remembering a cousins kids names in my family would be a minor faux pas, but I have like... dozens of cousins in two continents, so it's not a big deal. Not remembering a friends kids name should never be an issue IMO. Even much less so with birthdays.

But we're all entitled to our own opinions. I suppose I am just way more easy-going than some of the people here.

[fjfaase]

You won't forget directions when it matters.

If you can't remember how to get to a certain place without a navigation app, it's a sign that that place is not close enough to you for it to actaully matter.

I really do not understand people who cannot do without navigation to get home when they visited a friend for the first time.

[vonseel]

What? I'm not sure how that has anything to do with remembering a friend's kids names or remembering people's birthdays.

I drive with nav on if I'm going somewhere unfamiliar, but only bc I live in a kind of large city and I'd like to know if there are any traffic problems or construction on one of the streets I'm taking.

[sam_goody]

If you can't see someone, you obviously don't care about them. (Glasses are a conspiracy?) And if you can't hear your friends, you must hate them.

I can never remember my age, and have missed my birthday on occasion. When under pressure, I forget which of my children is the older, and confuse their names.

In other news, I speak with a heavy accent, and am embarrassed by it all the time. I have tried learning to speak natively, without luck.

This, despite my having an above average IQ.

Everyone is somewhere on the bell curve in all of our capabilities. Cut some slack for others where they lack, and appreciate the talents you have.

[vonseel]

I'm not sure what point the first paragraph in your response is trying to make, but all I was trying to say is it's OK to not remember details like this. Especially when it's someone else's kids, someone else's birthday - exterior to your own family.

Don't fret forgetting things. My dad has mixed up my name and my brothers names constantly since probably before I was born 31 years ago :). He's an older man now, almost 70, but I don't think his name mix-ups began because of any age-related mental decline.

[theshrike79]

I can still remember the name of the woman in the porn mag I found from my dads cupboard 30 years ago. Haven't seen that magazine in 29 years.

I keep forgetting the names of my friends wives and children. I talk to them weekly.

The only birthdays I remember are mine, my wife's and my kids. I kinda remember the season my other family members birthdays, maybe the month if I really strain. Couldn't tell the actual date even if you waterboarded me.

[vonseel]

I'm the exact same way. And that should be fine. I don't have kids but I have three brothers who all have kids. I know their first names, and most of their middle names. I don't know all their birthdays. That's fine. I recently asked so I could put their birthdays in my calendar.

But even my best friends, people I've known and lived with before, wouldn't expect me to remember details about their kids. That's just weird, man.

[sneak]

Not everyone has a good memory, even if they care a lot about people.

I once had a girlfriend I cared about tremendously. She was, and is, amazing. Her birthday, she told me, was the 7th of December. I didn't save it, because how could I forget? It's a day that will live in infamy! It's also don Vito Corleone's birthday!

It's proper infamous now: my forgetting it in no small part contributed to our breakup.

Some people just have bad memories.

[iamhamm]

I have a brain injury. I can’t remember my parent’s birthdays. I recently couldn’t recall my wife’s middle name. I love all those people and live with one of them. Needing or wanting a technology assist doesn’t map to one’s level of commitment to a relationship in my opinion.

[vonseel]

Like any situation, there are outliers and unique situations. Is your memory only affected for things you learned before the accident or does it affect new things you learn too?

[TheOperator]

No some people have disabilities and stuff. People with Alzheimer's aren't simply suffering from not being close enough with their friends and family.

[Nexxxeh]

I have genuine relationships with people, but some days I can't remember how old I am.

You might be both overthinking it, and overestimating some of the people who would use this.

I put friends birthdays in my Google calendar. It's not because I don't care about them enough to remember it. It's because I care enough to work around my own failings for them.

[floatingatoll]

It sounds luxurious to have the capability to “just” remember these things. After decades of being alive, I can tell you with certainty that my mom’s birthday is one of two days each year, but I have no idea which of those two days it is. We get along famously and I’m welcome at any time, because she loves me for who I am, not for what I cannot do: remember her birthday correctly.

I think she’d be more shocked that I was able to remember it than she would mind at all if I kept notes about her so I could remember. I think she would take immense personal offense if I did so using something terrible like Facebook, as would most in my family — but if I’m keeping it local to myself alone, I don’t expect it would be any trouble at all. She trusts that by now I’m competent at the Internet, because she watched me learn how to do my computer jobs as a young child.

I would be the topic of the day at a family gathering for doing this, though! We would all hash out the entire thing in lurid detail over meals and walks. Some would ask to see their records, and I’d happily comply. If I didn’t feel strongly about them, I wouldn’t bother taking notes at all, and they all understand the family rule: only ask questions you truly wish to know the answer to. If they can’t handle what I relegate to a notebook about them, then they shouldn’t ask to read my notebook about them. This is obvious to us. It’s a simple extension of the family rule.

Maybe your social circles are different and less flexible on this matter, but that’s not at all how it would work for mine.

[b0afc375b5]

I'm still in my late 20s and have admittedly not yet experienced everything the world has to offer. Thanks for sharing your story!

[floatingatoll]

I would definitely understand if it isn’t like this for everyone, too!

[scipio_orleans]

> wouldn't you take the effort to remember everything about them

You mean like the effort of writing it down? I see nothing ingenuine about understanding your cognitive limits and working around them to show that you care.

> I've met maybe 1000 people in my lifetime, I could count in my ten fingers the people I care about. Can people actually care about other people, AT SCALE, to the point where you would need an app for that?

Well I'd like to work on caring about more people. I think with personal CRMS it might help expand out my pool of and push conversations past the same ole small talk each time. Like if I can pull up something from the last convo that'd help.

[b0afc375b5]

I think it's a noble goal to genuinely care about more poeple.

> Like if I can pull up something from the last convo that'd help.

I can relate to this. Every time I'm alone with someone, my brain goes to overdrive and I ask myself questions like "what can we talk about" , "what common interests do we have", "how can I make him/her laugh", "what about this person that I don't know yet that I can ask" just to 'develop' the relationship.

But after a while of doing this, and observing myself doing this, I get burnt out and go 'f it, who cares'. If I cared about this person, it wouldn't feel such a grind to create/maintain this relationship.

[BiosElement]

For what it's worth, the answer "Who cares" is I do. Personally, I don't want to be the jerk who can't be bothered to remember names, so I choose to care.

Having said that, as long as you're not a jerk about it, which I don't think you are, I think it's personally fine to admit you've forgotten my name and ask, I'm not that memorable! :)

I think this just shows the value differences we each have from our upbringing and mentors, so it's very interesting.

[austhrow743]

I think this reads to me exactly like “if you really cared enough to get there you would just be able to run fast enough rather than use a car”.

It’s a weird equation of care and ability while at the same time taking someone seeking out a tool to better achieve X as evidence of not caring about X. One of those connections seems arbitrary to me, the other backwards.

[goatsi]

For quite a few people, memory and remembering things isn't a simple issue that can be solved by "effort" or "actually caring".

[brigandish]

Perhaps the causality is in both directions. Something I learned from doing Tibetan lamrim meditation - where you use memories and imagined scenarios to produce specific emotions to arise - is that you can start with something quite artificial or forced but this will lead to something genuine later down the line via practice. For example, if I think about all the things my mother did for me through my life, even before it, dreaming about me before she knew me, wishing the best for me, keeping me safe and trying hard to get me the best education, the best upbringing she could and so on… that can start off (and probably did in my case as a selfish ingrate) as a thought without the associated feeling of gratitude but I can tell you that writing that right now brought tears to my eyes as gratitude arose immediately.

In the same way, perhaps it's the case that if you remember more about more people then you will care more about more people? Certainly, making the effort to remember would suggest you care to begin with and wish for that to grow.

[lars512]

Sometimes it’s hard to be the kind of person we want to be for people we really care about.

One way of showing you care is making the effort to remember important things. Another is staying in contact. I’ve used Anki to remember friends kids names, and Monica to remind me to stay in touch. Very occasionally, I use Monica to remember where a friend is in their life last we spoke. Often a tiny cue is enough to jog your memory.

You might consider that “unauthentic”, but I would say people’s brains and memories are just really different —- what’s easy for you is not necessarily easy for everyone else. Using these tools let’s me be closer to the type of friend, brother, son that I’d like to be.

I should add, having moved overseas, Monica has also helped me maintain relationships with people who are very important to me, but who I may only get the chance to speak to every few weeks, or less. I’m quite grateful for it.

[mlacks]

I think it feels MORE genuine as the user went out of their way to make sure they could recall information that is important to their contacts. Taking notes in class so you can say you remembered isn't disingenuous.

[dqv]

>My argument is, if you actually cared for someone, wouldn't you take the effort to remember everything about them, rather than saving it in a social relationship database?

I mean aren't you going to have to write it down somewhere anyway? Maybe you're not familiar with the world of journaling/notebooks, but people use them (and have been using them) for the same purpose. Before technology, people still wrote information down about the people they cared about.

> Saving your friend's child's birthday in a database just so you can say that you remembered vs actually remembering their birthday

I mean if you're taking the time to write it down I think that demonstrates a level of genuineness. It's not always possible to e.g. have the foresight 3 months in advance to say "ah I can't do that because my friend's child's birthday is then".

>I would rather have 1 genuine relationship, rather than 100 superficial, inauthentic relationships.

I think authenticity has a lot more to do with experiences you have with a person, which is augmented by making sure you're available to spend time with them on important dates, having awareness of their likes and dislikes, and just taking note of general information. I find that, personally, when I take the time to write these things down, I actually keep them in my memory.

[BiosElement]

As someone who is utterly awful with names but genuinely remembers people I interact with through the day on campus and at work, Dynalist was what I used to keep track of names with references to where I knew them from. Just whatever would spark my memory.

It wasn't that I didn't care about them, I truly did, but I frequently mix up names of even my closest friends if I'm not paying attention and make great effort to not give others the impression I don't care enough to remember.

[kstrauser]

I disagree. I simply cannot remember all of the social niceties I’m expected to remember. For me personally, I show that I care for people by giving myself reminders that they have an important event.

Let’s turn this around: if a friend wishes you a happy birthday, do you know or care how and why they remembered?

[b0afc375b5]

True. If someone wished me happy birthday I would be glad.

On the other side, however, I've already sent countless happy birthdays, merry christmases, and happy new years. Every time I do it I have this gut feeling of inauthenticity. I think to myself, "do I really care about these people".

I'm just basically trying to figure out if this is my personal issue or if anyone else feel the same way. Thanks for the response!

[kstrauser]

Is there a difference, really? You’re observing social customs that make people feel nice, and honestly, the fact that you’re doing those things is what the recipients actually care about.

Again, the last time your friend wished you happy birthday, did you wonder if they were being authentic or did it just feel nice that your friend remembered? Cut yourself the same slack!

[dqv]

There is an opportunity to reconnect with someone every time you do it. I think that's what draws people to practices such as sending cards. Another way to reconnect is sending out a letter with a short blurb about how you're doing and inviting the recipient to respond back with a short blurb about how they're doing.

[laurieg]

Please be aware that not everyone has the same capacity for memory about personal details as you. Not everyone using this tool is necessarily recording 1000 different details. Maybe they are just writing information about the 10 people they care about?

[TheOperator]

>Saving your friend's child's birthday in a database just so you can say that you remembered vs actually remembering their birthday; I feel like there is a huge gap between the two. I would rather have 1 genuine relationship, rather than 100 superficial, inauthentic relationships.

I would say you're looking at it completely wrong and you don't have to forget somebodies birthday that many times before you write it down because all it does is hurt everybody. Some segment of the population forgets these things EVEN WITH the inner circle of people they know.

[brnt]

I forget my own birthday.

You and others probably have a much better memory than I.

I don't use tools though, we have a physical birthday calendar that helps.

[encom]

This is peak Silicon Valley.

A Personal Relationship Manager feels like something that would be used against you in a jury trial. Not any specific information entered into it, just the fact alone that you were using it.

[dqv]

Why? What is the difference between this and a filofax except for the fact that one is digital and one is not?

[encom]

I think it's the "taking it way too far"-aspect of it, compared to a regular calendar[0], that makes it so creepy. It's the fedora and trenchcoat of calendars.

[0]Which my casual duckduckgoing indicates a filofax is.[1]

[1]On re-reading the above, I fear it might have sounded a little condescending, which was not my intention. I've just never heard of filofax before. In Denmark we just call those calendars or occasionally "Mayland", after a popular brand that makes those.</tangent>

[dqv]

I guess I don't understand what about it is taking it too far. With a filofax, you're taking all kinds of information down about people. Calendaring is one aspect of it, but it's really an analog personal information manager. People keep yearly archives of the information. So is it that a digital PIM automates some of this process that you object to?