[mym1990]

Sleeping feels so fleeting, you close your eyes and poof there go 8 hours(not to say that it isn't beneficial or necessary of course). To work 8 hours, sleep, and then work another 8 hours felt not much different than just working 16 hours with a small break in the middle. So I would stay up for a while to have fun at the expense of the next day...and probably many days thereafter.

[kayodelycaon]

It gets worse when sleep isn't fleeting. Waking up every two hours and then struggling to get back to sleep really draws out the misery of working long hours.

Note: Before anyone tries to give me advice, my depressive episodes cause primary insomnia. Whatever you think will work, won't. It's been tried.

[robocat]

A question: why do you personally believe the causality is depression causes insomnia? Alternatively why do you not think that insomnia causes depression?

[kayodelycaon]

Personally believe...?

I've been diagnosed Bipolar 1 by a psychiatrist. Primary insomnia is a known symptom of depressive episodes. Uncommon to be sure, but not unknown.

And to prove it really is primary insomnia, let me walk you through the three different kinds of insomnia I deal with.

1. Anxiety-related insomnia. Rare. My brain is stuck in a feedback loop.

2. Manic insomnia. Occasionally. My brain running overclocked and I don't feel tired. Imagine trying to sleep while doing lines of cocaine.

3. Depression insomnia. Common. My body can sleep but brain cannot sleep. I can lay in bed for eight hours, motionless and thoughtless while being fully conscious of every moment while my body rests. I get up with my body feeling great and my mind exhausted.

[robocat]

Sorry, I was just trying to grok how you understand things to help me learn. I hope I didn’t come across as attacking you.

Completely off-topic, but I am interested in the science of psychological diagnoses, because a diagnosis is usually a recognition of a cluster of symptoms, and only sometimes is a cause given.

Funnily enough, before you mentioned it, I didn’t know what ‘primary insomnia’ meant. A definition for others: “Traditionally, a distinction has been made between secondary insomnia, which arises due to another condition, and primary insomnia where a patient has problems sleeping but where there is no underlying medical cause. However, this distinction is now considered less important because:” from https://bpac.org.nz/2017/insomnia-1.aspx

Trying to understand causes is an epically hard road, as shown by the slow progress in non-psych medicine over the last century. Especially hard if your own mind is throwing roadblocks in the way (mental tar pit, manic disinformation, delusions, time 110% dedicated to surviving with no spare cycles).

All the best fortune on your journey.

[shakhahxhcj]

Ever tried mirtazapine? It’s an antidepressant that’s also a sedative. You take it every night before bed. Works great for me.

[kayodelycaon]

What part of no advice... sigh

No. I'd like to avoid my psychiatrist sending me to the ER again.

[tremon]

you close your eyes and poof there go 8 hours

I wish I could say that about myself. Since a few months, I often lie awake for hours waiting for sleep to come along and poof the night away. More often than not, it takes until 3am for me to fall asleep, and I feel as broken as you might expect the next morning.

I don't really have a good handle on what changed, or how to get back into my old sleep cycle. I just know it's annoying as hell.

[mym1990]

I often self sabotage myself, as humans are prone to do. I used to get into this cycle of playing video games or watching some show until like 6am and then I would go to sleep for 5-6 hours. I knew what I needed to do to get myself out of that cycle, as eventually it became unpleasant/anti-social/etc... but I just didn't want to take the steps. As can be seen in some of the comments, there is often a chasm between giving advice and taking it.

[amoldan]

What I have observed (in my case) is that if 1. I am too tired, it actually takes longer to fall asleep. 2. If I have watched some heavy / thought provoking movie / series etc., those thoughts keep playing out in my head and then it takes longer to fall asleep.

In such cases, I have devised a strategy. I have developed a fantasy of my own which I keep playing out in my head consciously. I am fast asleep before I know it.

[yetihehe]

Works for me too. Some people count sheeps to sleep, I evaluate cnc machines or some mechanical contraptions.

[airstrike]

The first tip a "sleep doctor" will give you is to cut caffeine. Have you tried that?

[kaybe]

I just saw a note this week that in cases like this it might be good to ask 'what have you tried?' before giving any advice. Maybe HN should get into that habit.

[airstrike]

Why? If they decide to share their personal story online, at the very least they should expect to get replies from people who may relate to it and are willing to share their own experiences for what they're worth.

If they get offended by that advice, the issue is on them, not me.

Also, ironically enough, your comment is actually the unsolicited advice in the thread...

[kaybe]

I guess you're right, both comments are, since nobody asked for advice.

I chose this point to invite this discussion, but could have used one of the many others in the same vein as well. What is a good reaction to someone stating their plight but not actually asking for help?

[airstrike]

I equate someone stating their plight with asking for advice. Particularly the following

> I don't really have a good handle on what changed, or how to get back into my old sleep cycle. I just know it's annoying as hell.

In my mind, the only point in saying that is for others to empathize and share their best ideas so that OP can have "a better handle" on things. I think it's only human to respond as I did.

I do think we live in an age where people are sensitive over their interpersonal boundaries to a fault. No man is an island, and people will always give unsolicited advice—the listener can simply just choose to ignore it in which case nobody is really worse off.

Advice is almost invariably provided "as is" and with a suggested grain of salt. I don't see how it's offensive, almost by definition, as there's a distinction between being judgmental of someone and genuinely trying to help.

And for what it's worth, I don't even get offended if people judge me and don't think others should either. It's part of what defines life in a society and judging / peer pressure has a net positive effect lest we remain barbarians.

[TaupeRanger]

Strangely enough, I drink a large cup in the morning but almost always feel very tired by mid afternoon, and find it easy (recognizing my good fortune here) to fall asleep at night. Amazing how varied biological/psychological responses can be to a single substance.