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by pmiller2 2027 days ago
This is my view exactly. I've been telling people I know who are trying to ride the crypto train that BTC has no fundamentals, by which I mean exactly that "the only reason it has value is if people value it."

Think about it: the way BTC is created is basically by expending energy to solve some contrived math problem. So what? Who should ever care at all that someone, at sometime in the past, happened to be running a computer that hit on the solution of a silly math problem? It gets even more absurd when you consider that mining pools became a thing, so that even if your particular computer hits on the solution, you didn't actually do all the work that goes into the so-called "proof of work." (Yes, I know, in this scenario, the new BTC is split among the pool members, but, that doesn't really matter very much.)

So, basically, BTC is the recording of the fact that someone, somewhere contributed to the solution of a math problem. Why should that have value at all, over and above the inherent value in solving said problem, which is essentially nil in this case? Well, it shouldn't. And, yet, it does, for the reason you've noted.

Although I hesitate to call BTC "money," there is an actual form of money that also has value for the same reason, is a true digital currency, which has a durable and distributed transaction record, and is much easier to manipulate for the purpose of managing an economy based on it. That would be the USD, and other such fiat currencies. And, the USD fundamentally is just the recording of the fact that a bank somewhere has managed to create $9 by turning $1 in reserve into $10 in loans out into the economy at large (or, whatever the ratio exactly is -- I forget.)

In other words, if you accept that BTC is a currency at all, it's little more than a worse version of the world's de facto reserve fiat currency, with the added bonus of generally not being able to transact using it, along with extreme volatility relative to the USD, which one actually can transact with.

That's not to say I don't wish I had bought some BTC back when I first heard of it and it was trading at under $1. Had I gambled even $500 on it back then, I would have somewhere in the neighborhood of $9M now, and, essentially be set for life. But, I was a poor graduate student who already realized most of what I previously mentioned and decided that I'd rather pay rent for a couple of months in the dorms than buy an expensive lottery ticket.

1 comments

I would hesitate to call it "money" as well, as apart from its use in place of money, it has no value. Even paper currency is, at bottom, worth the paper it's printed on.
Even paper currency is, at bottom, worth the paper it's printed on.

When Zimbabwe printed a $100,000,000,000,000 (one hundred trillion dollar bill) due to hyperinflation, the people used it for fire, because it wasn't useful for anything else.

So… no, paper money has been worthless many times.

And, now, those notes sell for over $100 each in uncirculated condition, simply because it's denominated in "dollars" and has the largest numerical denomination history. Had you bought one in 2001, when they were worth $5 apiece, that would have yielded you a CAGR of around 40%. Sometimes, I kind of want to kick myself for missing out on that train. :)
More as a collectable than anything else.
You should look up "worthless." Even kindling counts as value. Try burning Bitcoin.
Coins are essentially worthless as well. Ok, they have a 'book value' of the (usually base) metal they're made from. But that's about it.

So what has 'true value' then? Gold? It's similar to Bitcoin, in that you have to deposit it and use an exchange.

It's similar to Bitcoin, in that you have to deposit it and use an exchange.

Bitcoin is peer-to-peer; you don't have to use an exchange to transact.

Lightning allows us to transact bitcoin instantaneously, person to person. There are plenty of Lightning wallets for iOS and Android.

[1]: https://bisq.network

[2]: https://hodlhodl.com

As long as you're willing to transact $19000, right? Else who holds the coin in escrow? Or am I misunderstanding something.
Or am I misunderstanding something. Yes.

From the Bisq FAQ: Security deposits are set to be a percentage of the trade amount—actual percent varies by BTC price volatility, but minimum is 0.006 BTC—but the percent can be adjusted by the offer maker to be as low as 15% or as high as 50%.

0.006 of a Bitcoin is $117.366

So, with an exchange? Not peer to peer?
I believe you can transact in amounts as low as 1 satoshi, or 1e-8 BTC, which would imply a minimum transaction amount of $0.19, assuming a value of $19k per BTC.
It's true that current circulation coins have very little value as metal scrap. The largest coin you're ever likely to encounter in circulation is the Kennedy half dollar. Since 1971, they are made of a copper core with a copper/nickel cladding layer, just like current dimes and quarters are. It's current melt value is approximately $0.09.

But, when yo speak about "true value," consider that anything you're trying to attach a dollar value to, you're measuring its value in terms of dollars. A dollar today really is little more than a bit that's set in a computer somewhere. Why do we give that any value at all?

The answer is that the USD, along with most, if not all, current world currencies, is essentially an "economy token." By that I mean the USD is literally just a way to keep score, i.e. to tell how much you're winning at the game of capitalism.

This seems like neither a good thing nor a bad thing. It just is what it is.

Interestingly, according to https://sdbullion.com/blog/how-much-silver-gold-is-there there are about 6e9 ozt gold and 5e10 ozt silver above ground right now. At today's current spot prices of $1789.55 for gold per ozt and $22.78 per ozt, that works out to about 1.2e13 USD worth, which, if we made all money either out of or backed by gold and silver in a 1:1 ratio, would literally be all the money in the world.

Gold has value on its own, apart from its function as money.
"Paper is poverty… it is only the ghost of money, not money itself."

-Thomas Jefferson