[cirno]

Exceptions abound, but in general software development jobs even at smaller studios pay a lot less in Japan than in the US.

In Tokyo you'd expect to make around 400,000 yen a month, which is about $3500 a month. That sounds nice until you see that a 400sqft apartment with no bedrooms can cost 100,000 yen or more. A one bedroom can hit 150,000 - 200,000 yen in a nice area with convenient access to train stations.

Edit: the website linked has good statistics on this:

https://www.tokyodev.com/2020/01/07/japan-developer-salaries...

Notably, "this 2018 survey conducted by the Japanese government found that the average "System Engineer" (a roughly analogous position to a software developer) in Japan had 12 years of experience and an annual compensation of ¥5.5 million."

[bschwindHN]

I live and work in Tokyo, this is pretty accurate. Of course you can also work on a scale of increasing commute time in order to decrease rent or increase housing size.

Companies typically pay your commuting fees so it's an attractive option for some who don't mind riding trains for awhile.

[amake]

“Can” cost being the operative word.

There is plenty of housing much more reasonably priced than that. Just don’t live in central Minato-ku.

[cirno]

Pretty much anywhere with a 10 minute walking distance to the Yamanote line will set you back about the numbers I've mentioned. You can of course go far out of your way and pay half as much, if you don't mind a very long commute each way to work. I would not recommend it given how crowded Japan's trains get during rush hour.

[benrbray]

You can go quite a bit farther out than Yamanote without increasing your commute by much. I once lived in Ota ward with a daily commute to Nihombashi. Door-to-door commute time was 25 minutes. Not too much worse than a 10-15 minute commute, especially when I can read / reply to emails on the way.

[amake]

There are plenty of reasonable commutes to be had well outside the Yamanote loop.

[mehrzad]

It's fascinating to me hearing about how Hong Kong and Tokyo have similar cost of living to even some of the most expensive metros in the US, but the pay isn't as competitive. It makes me wonder why the market hasn't adjusted (by people moving to smaller cities, pay raises, etc).

[ehnto]

Like others have mentioned, the US pays it's developers like royalty because they are a key fuel in the tech bubble. In a playground full of millionares and billionaires developers are an enabling piece of the puzzle.

The rest of the world doesn't have such extreme market forces, and there are even subsets of the software market in the US that also can't afford to pay at that level because they have more traditional business models.

You could say wages for devs in the US are more closely tied to the value they provide to the tech bubble and it's inflated economics, not the value they provide to society in traditional business models.

This is also why there are more "family owned" style small software companies in the rest of the world. A single SV wage would be more than some companies yearly revenue.

[ornornor]

Switzerland developers salaries are the same or higher than US. You get a much better standard of living, 5 weeks vacation minimum, paid overtime (all time worked is logged and checked by the govt so it is paid), a pension.

Just putting this here for people to know it might be an option. I certainly wish I knew sooner. Visa can be tricky though, if you’re not at least an EU citizen (or better yet, married to a Swiss), it’ll tough getting a visa. And I’d you’re American, no bank will touch you with a ten foot pole.

[bosie]

How is the purchasing power with that swiss salary though? Are the job opportunities mostly in the financial sector?

[ornornor]

I’d say it’s very good. I don’t know about Zürich where rent is higher but overall it works out pretty well considering the overall package: much better employment insurance (1-2 years at 80% of your salary, including if you quit), vacation (5 weeks minimum by law + statutory holidays), health insurance (healthcare is not cheap here compared to Germany or France or Italy but the max deductible allowed for policies is 2500/year/adult), paid overtime (again, by law), 1-3 months notice period when quitting or laying off, and companies (generally) aren’t as trigger happy: if they hire you it’s not to fire you as soon as the wind changes. Oh and parental leave by law (don’t know the specifics).

That’s my understanding, if I made a mistake please correct me.

Yes food costs more, so does clothing etc. But taxes aren’t suuuper high in my opinion (around 20-30% with health insurance paid separately), VAT is 7.7%, and you can get anywhere by train for quite cheap (super saver tickets let you go across Switzerland for 20 francs, if you plan a bit ahead).

The caveat is that unless you have an EU passport or marry a Swiss, it’s almost impossible to get a work visa. And if you’re a US citizen, there is no bank that will want to take you as a customer.

Banks are a big employer but there are also insurance companies. I’m joking, these two are big but there are startups as well, consultancies, big entreprise type of jobs, etc.

[literallycancer]

Really? As in you have gone to levels.fyi and the numbers there are lower than what you are seeing in Zurich?

[ornornor]

For google etc yes they’re comparable.

[robjan]

I live in Hong Kong. We have 0% capital gains tax, 0% dividend tax and my effective income tax is around 5%. Many people get this down to 0% by getting married, having kids, giving money to their parents, offsetting against mortgage interest payments etc. Healthcare is a lot cheaper than in the US too. Living here is definitely workable.

Adding to that, most people live with their family until they get married in their early thirties and over half of the permanent resident population live in very heavily subsidised public housing.

[gautamcgoel]

How do you like HK? Would you recommend it to an American?

[fiblye]

> It's fascinating to me hearing about how Hong Kong and Tokyo have similar cost of living to even some of the most expensive metros in the US

It's truly fascinating because I've never seen a city in Japan that costs anywhere near as much as some podunk local economic hub in the US, yet I hear these "it's too expensive" stories all the time.

My combined monthly expenses in a city--rent, food, and everything--comes to maybe $1200. My mind is blown whenever I hear people say they're struggling to pay for things or life is too expensive. The main thing I've noticed is most of these people are going to bars/izakaya several times a week, and it's easy to spend $50+ for a small meal and some beers there. I know people in Tokyo making far less than Western wages but still living very comfortably.

But in-city rent in Japan doesn't even approach a typical 500k population city in the US , unless you're insisting on living in the middle of the most in demand parts of Shibuya or something.

[greggman3]

Lol, I have a couple friend, 3 kids, living in Los Altos, they said combined they think they make $800k a year. They can't afford to live their !?!?!?!?!?

[bamboozled]

It's because people in Tokyo often participate in work or work related activities in their free time.

Many "perks" are provided by companies, this includes dinners, drinks tax breaks on your company housing etc.

The vast majority of people who are employed in Japan are also part of a family, which is their company. Your company even sends you for health checkups and they know the results of said checkups. If you're overweight, they'll make you go lose it etc.

Even peoples managers or the companies president will come speak at an employees wedding.

It's a totally different culture.

[MattGaiser]

We have the same issue in Canada as well. Toronto and Vancouver, our two most expensive cities, have salaries below many other cities while having some of the highest housing costs.

[smnrchrds]

It's not Canada or Japan or UK that is special, it's the US. If you imagine US tech salary levels are normal, you would come to the conclusion that the entire rest of the world underpays their developers. But at that point, wouldn't it be more accurate to say other countries' salaries ought to be what defines 'normal' and US salaries are the exceptional case, not the other way around?

[andi999]

Well 25% of salary for rent, sounds ok. You need to adapt a little to the culture, generally the bedding is put in a big cupboard and the room converted daily. Get some nice tatami mats and enjoy.

[iamben]

What experience level is that for the dev? I'd say you're paying more than that for equivalent in London, but that salary would be relatively junior.

[toyg]

The job security is on a different level though. Also, I suspect real estate around Tokyo, albeit inflated since the '80s, is not as bad as London, because attractiveness of the city is significantly restricted at the cultural level (London attracts loads of people from everywhere, Tokyo mostly attracts "only" the Japanese).

[barry-cotter]

Tokyo real estate prices have been pretty much flat for the last two decades despite population growing 50%. That’s not an accident. They work hard to make it affordable for people to move there, just like in the UK they work hard on ensuring house prices and rents go up. Governments get the housing market they want to get, based on the priorities they have.

[danielscrubs]

This, so much. We have the same problem in Sweden. It was amazing how easy getting an apartment in Tokyo is. If you want to rent in my Swedish town your best bet is having parents put you on a waitlist when you are born, which a lot did. Buying is of course easy if you have the money, and it’s all governmental regulation causing it.

[cirno]

Generally that's the starting rate for a college graduate, who I assume would be most likely to be interested in relocating to Japan.

Here's some good numbers at different experience levels: https://www.tokyodev.com/2020/01/07/japan-developer-salaries...

I'll trust his higher end estimate of 16+ years netting you 11 million yen, but I've never seen a job posting anywhere near that even for senior engineers. And even if that is the case, 11 million yen is still far below a FAANG salary with equivalent experience.

[guy_c]

I also have not seen many vacancies advertised at that level. But I suspect there are roles for people with the right experience. The roles are getting filled by recruiters approaching already employed people.

My guess is a very experienced developer that speak English and Japanese can get base salaries above ¥10m at FAANG in Tokyo. So probably ¥15m with bonus and RSUs is obtainable.

[mikeomoto]

Whether or not you speak Japanese is not a factor in getting a job at FAANG in Tokyo. Also, your guess is off by half, at least.

[jbay808]

> Also, your guess is off by half, at least.

In which direction?

[guy_c]

@iamben at current GBPJPY exchange rate of 138, ¥15m total comp would be nearing £110k.

I am out of touch of FAANG senior dev salaries are in London now. Does that sound on par?

[therwe234234]

Google pays ~ 20M TC for L4; I think the compensation at Indeed/Amazon/MSFT is about the same.

[ehnto]

Out of curiosity what would you consider an incovenient access to a train station? How long of a walk, and how long of train ride would be too much?

[tidenly]

Ten minutes is considered the breaking point for most people in Tokyo, the rent prices will drop after the apartments are further away from a train station that that.

[greggman3]

There are so many factors. I agree a 10 minutes walk might be considered far. Me though, for example, according to Google Maps I'm 20 mins from the 3 different stations (so not sure which one is closest) but I live just off a major street with 12 bus lines and I only live 2 mins from the bus stop. There's a bus every ~2 min so I can get to the station they're all going to usually in 6-8 minutes total travel time (though I haven't ridden train or taken the bus since March). Many stations also have bike parking garages and you can get a monthly space so your 10-20 minute walk could be a 5-10 minute bike ride.