[mehrzad]

It's fascinating to me hearing about how Hong Kong and Tokyo have similar cost of living to even some of the most expensive metros in the US, but the pay isn't as competitive. It makes me wonder why the market hasn't adjusted (by people moving to smaller cities, pay raises, etc).

[ehnto]

Like others have mentioned, the US pays it's developers like royalty because they are a key fuel in the tech bubble. In a playground full of millionares and billionaires developers are an enabling piece of the puzzle.

The rest of the world doesn't have such extreme market forces, and there are even subsets of the software market in the US that also can't afford to pay at that level because they have more traditional business models.

You could say wages for devs in the US are more closely tied to the value they provide to the tech bubble and it's inflated economics, not the value they provide to society in traditional business models.

This is also why there are more "family owned" style small software companies in the rest of the world. A single SV wage would be more than some companies yearly revenue.

[ornornor]

Switzerland developers salaries are the same or higher than US. You get a much better standard of living, 5 weeks vacation minimum, paid overtime (all time worked is logged and checked by the govt so it is paid), a pension.

Just putting this here for people to know it might be an option. I certainly wish I knew sooner. Visa can be tricky though, if you’re not at least an EU citizen (or better yet, married to a Swiss), it’ll tough getting a visa. And I’d you’re American, no bank will touch you with a ten foot pole.

[bosie]

How is the purchasing power with that swiss salary though? Are the job opportunities mostly in the financial sector?

[ornornor]

I’d say it’s very good. I don’t know about Zürich where rent is higher but overall it works out pretty well considering the overall package: much better employment insurance (1-2 years at 80% of your salary, including if you quit), vacation (5 weeks minimum by law + statutory holidays), health insurance (healthcare is not cheap here compared to Germany or France or Italy but the max deductible allowed for policies is 2500/year/adult), paid overtime (again, by law), 1-3 months notice period when quitting or laying off, and companies (generally) aren’t as trigger happy: if they hire you it’s not to fire you as soon as the wind changes. Oh and parental leave by law (don’t know the specifics).

That’s my understanding, if I made a mistake please correct me.

Yes food costs more, so does clothing etc. But taxes aren’t suuuper high in my opinion (around 20-30% with health insurance paid separately), VAT is 7.7%, and you can get anywhere by train for quite cheap (super saver tickets let you go across Switzerland for 20 francs, if you plan a bit ahead).

The caveat is that unless you have an EU passport or marry a Swiss, it’s almost impossible to get a work visa. And if you’re a US citizen, there is no bank that will want to take you as a customer.

Banks are a big employer but there are also insurance companies. I’m joking, these two are big but there are startups as well, consultancies, big entreprise type of jobs, etc.

[literallycancer]

Really? As in you have gone to levels.fyi and the numbers there are lower than what you are seeing in Zurich?

[ornornor]

For google etc yes they’re comparable.

[robjan]

I live in Hong Kong. We have 0% capital gains tax, 0% dividend tax and my effective income tax is around 5%. Many people get this down to 0% by getting married, having kids, giving money to their parents, offsetting against mortgage interest payments etc. Healthcare is a lot cheaper than in the US too. Living here is definitely workable.

Adding to that, most people live with their family until they get married in their early thirties and over half of the permanent resident population live in very heavily subsidised public housing.

[gautamcgoel]

How do you like HK? Would you recommend it to an American?

[fiblye]

> It's fascinating to me hearing about how Hong Kong and Tokyo have similar cost of living to even some of the most expensive metros in the US

It's truly fascinating because I've never seen a city in Japan that costs anywhere near as much as some podunk local economic hub in the US, yet I hear these "it's too expensive" stories all the time.

My combined monthly expenses in a city--rent, food, and everything--comes to maybe $1200. My mind is blown whenever I hear people say they're struggling to pay for things or life is too expensive. The main thing I've noticed is most of these people are going to bars/izakaya several times a week, and it's easy to spend $50+ for a small meal and some beers there. I know people in Tokyo making far less than Western wages but still living very comfortably.

But in-city rent in Japan doesn't even approach a typical 500k population city in the US , unless you're insisting on living in the middle of the most in demand parts of Shibuya or something.

[greggman3]

Lol, I have a couple friend, 3 kids, living in Los Altos, they said combined they think they make $800k a year. They can't afford to live their !?!?!?!?!?

[bamboozled]

It's because people in Tokyo often participate in work or work related activities in their free time.

Many "perks" are provided by companies, this includes dinners, drinks tax breaks on your company housing etc.

The vast majority of people who are employed in Japan are also part of a family, which is their company. Your company even sends you for health checkups and they know the results of said checkups. If you're overweight, they'll make you go lose it etc.

Even peoples managers or the companies president will come speak at an employees wedding.

It's a totally different culture.

[MattGaiser]

We have the same issue in Canada as well. Toronto and Vancouver, our two most expensive cities, have salaries below many other cities while having some of the highest housing costs.

[smnrchrds]

It's not Canada or Japan or UK that is special, it's the US. If you imagine US tech salary levels are normal, you would come to the conclusion that the entire rest of the world underpays their developers. But at that point, wouldn't it be more accurate to say other countries' salaries ought to be what defines 'normal' and US salaries are the exceptional case, not the other way around?