[nkrisc]

Alternative theory: He was facing life in prison and was going to have his awful secrets exposed in detail in court so he just took the easy way out since he was going to die in prison anyway. His life was already over.

I assume most people in his situation would prefer to just kill themselves.

It's not really a stretch to imagine why he would want to kill himself. It's much more of a stretch the imagine a vast conspiracy to kill him. I'm going to prefer the simplest explanation 9 of 10 times. But hey, who knows?

[linksnapzz]

He became the first person to do that, in a building filled top to bottom with people with as much or more reasons to kill themselves, in thirteen years. And, he did so at the precise moment there would be no witnesses or observers, human or electronic.

When you are done using it, please clean off Ockham’s Butterknife and put it back in the drawer.

[nkrisc]

Well of course he did at the precise moment there were no observers or witnesses or he wouldn't have been able to do it, they'd have seen him and stopped it.

If there was some vast conspiracy, why wouldn't they have just killed him before he was in custody when it would have been far easier?

[Fjolsvith]

Exactly. That's why they have those little red LED's on the cameras, so Epstein would know when they were recording static.

[disown]

That doesn't really explain everything else does it? The guards, the cameras, etc. And if he was the type to kill himself, wouldn't he have done so the first time he got caught?

> It's much more of a stretch the imagine a vast conspiracy to kill him.

For normal people, but not a guy who had "awful secrets" that many people in power don't want revealed.

> I'm going to prefer the simplest explanation 9 of 10 times.

Except occam's razor isn't on your side here. The simplest answer here is a conspiracy. Not suicide. Occam's razor says he was killed.

The guards not looking after him while he was on suicide watch. The cameras not working. Didn't medical examinations also show trauma rather than suicide.

[DanBC]

> The guards, the cameras,

People who don't know much about suicide prevention think these are important points, but anyone who works in suicide prevention can tell you that observations don't work; staff don't pay attention to the cctv monitors; staff lie about what they've done; people attach ligatures in ligature-point free rooms etc etc.

People kill themselves all the time, even when supposedly on 1:1 obs and in special wards.

[disown]

> People who don't know much about suicide prevention think these are important points, but anyone who works in suicide prevention can tell you that observations don't work;

You are being intentionally misleading here. I'm not saying that they could have or should have prevented the suicide, but the guards should have been there to monitor. The cameras should have been there to record/document. It's not the prevention I'm concerned about, it's the convenient lack of documentation/monitoring/etc.

> People kill themselves all the time, even when supposedly on 1:1 obs and in special wards.

But how many cases as important as epstein, where he was being monitored via guards and camera, and being watched for suicide have both the guards and cameras fail?

Arguably the most important inmate in US custody ( maybe in history ) and the guards are sleeping and the cameras are not working? Give me a break. Even the most naive person has to admit things aren't kosher here.

[DanBC]

> but the guards should have been there to monitor. The cameras should have been there to record/document.

Yes, but we know that guards do not monitor. We know cameras frequently aren't working.

> It's not the prevention I'm concerned about, it's the convenient lack of documentation/monitoring/etc.

You say "convenient", I say "sadly all too familiar".

> But how many cases as important as epstein, where he was being monitored via guards and camera, and being watched for suicide have both the guards and cameras fail?

Honestly loads. Fred West, Harold Shipman, were both notable serial killers who took their own lives when in prison. West murdered 12 people and was on remand. Shipman, who murdered over 200 people, had previously expressed suicidal intent and gave a reason for wanting to die.

> and the guards are sleeping and the cameras are not working?

You keep saying this, as if it's some kind of smoking gun. The thing I'm trying to tell you is that it's very common and that it's not in anyway surprising that a person, even a very high profile person, dies by suicide.

[AndrewBissell]

Were either of those serial killers allowed to take their own lives while they were still awaiting trial, and while their testimony was reasonably and widely believed to have the potential to implicate a large number of the ruling power elite?

Did either of them commit suicide within mere weeks of a previous attempt?

[nkrisc]

I just think it would require much less for a single guy to kill himself than for a vast conspiracy to have killed him in a secure facility. Stuck a conspiracy would have to have involved a great many people, many of whom are not rich and powerful.

It woyld have been far easier to just kill before custody, then they could have even just made it look like an accident.

[randompwd]

They don't need to be rich or powerful - they just need to have something to lose or be believers in the 'it's for national security'. You don't need to ask the guards to fall asleep. You just need to ensure the doziest guards are put on the schedule.

Why do it in the prison?

A controlled environment where they have access to the cameras and all recording devices, not to mention all technology(access logs etc.) as well as no members of the public being around.

Out in public, you run a massive risk of some random noticing something/some camera inadvertently recording something.(or some random/some camera noticing/capturing something from the time leading up to it).

It's an avoidable mess.

Plus, a death in jail - people can rationalise it away - for the exact same reasons I listed above - 'oh, it's a controlled environment - $authorities control who goes in and out - they're not going let a random person walk around'

If I don't reply to this comment in 5 years, it is a sure sign that I have been targeted.

Last part is a joke.

Last part is a canary.

Joke.

Canary..

[AndrewBissell]

There was even one alleged suicide attempt several weeks before Epstein got his ticket punched! So any idea that this caught the jail by surprise is totally dishonest. Any idiot could (and many did!) see Epstein's death coming as long as they weren't wedded to pseudo-clever notions like "there's no such thing as conspiracies" or "they'd never do something so obvious and in-the-open."

[nkrisc]

Why are people so wedded to the notion that there is a conspiracy here? What if there isn't? What does it mean then?

I find that those who are strong believers in conspiracy theories never consider that they might just be wrong. No, anything that might suggest they're wrong is just further evidence of a cover up. I guess being wrong in this case would mean all the famous people who've been villainized for alleged participation in Epstein's trafficking aren't actually worthy of all the mud that's been thrown their way. He's actually more valuable as a political tool dead than he is alive so certain political groups can slander their opponents with connections to him and he can't refute anything. Here's an alternative conspiracy theory: right wing groups killed him so they could start a conspiracy theory that a powerful Democratic cabal that doesn't actually exist had him killed and dirty left wing politicians with association to him. Prove that didn't happen.

I'm not saying it's not true, maybe it is, but in absence of additional evidence it just seems most likely that the guy just killed himself to avoid being prosecuted for sex trafficking of children, which he was almost certainly guilty of.

But seriously, I still think any investigations should continue and any associates of his, whoever they are, should be brought to justice.

[AndrewBissell]

There is zero reason to think Epstein didn't at least entertain the possibility that he would get away with another slap on the wrist. Before the trial started the possibility was already being raised that his 2007 plea agreement would get him out of any legal consequences this time around.

The guy had such delusions of grandeur he wanted to freeze his head and penis and impregnate dozens of women simultaneously at his New Mexico ranch to "seed the human race with his DNA." He would have at least waited to see how the trial turned out before offing himself.

[nkrisc]

And perhaps he killed himself when he realized he wasn't going to get away with just a slap on the wrist.

He seems like the kind of guy for whom having his reputation and legacy destroyed while he watched would be a fate worse than death.

I've got nothing riding on any of this, but I'm just not convinced yet.

[AndrewBissell]

> And perhaps he killed himself when he realized he wasn't going to get away with just a slap on the wrist.

How could he have possibly "realized" that before the trial even started?

[nkrisc]

Because he knew he did it all and maybe he knew the prosecution knew enough to nail him? Is that really so surprising?