[eru]

If you want to play the classic X-COM today, make sure to grab the latest community patches.

I really liked the old X-COM games and had anticipated that I would not like the reboot very much.

However, while I wouldn't want to miss the originals for the reboot, the reboots are done very solidly and in most instances I even find myself agreeing with the streamlining the new authors chose.

If you want a tactical squad-level game that goes beyond what the original X-COM did, I suggest having a look at Frozen Synapse. Frozen Synapse has much fewer elements than X-COM, but its major innovation is that each turn both you and your opponent plan your turns concurrently at your leisure and then the turn plays out over 5 seconds in continuous time.

In contrast, I always felt the serialising that X-COM enforced to be an artificial limitation.

[the_af]

> However, while I wouldn't want to miss the originals for the reboot, the reboots are done very solidly

Much like you, I'm a diehard X-COM fan and anticipated the XCOM reboot wouldn't please me, and again like you I was pleasantly surprised.

I think the biggest improvement is the streamlining of TUs from the original (which was always a bit messy) into the actions of the reboot.

> In contrast, I always felt the serialising that X-COM enforced to be an artificial limitation.

I disagree about this. I like turn-based games; they feel more cerebral and less twitchy than RTS'es. I can play XCOM while eating a sandwich or drinking coffee, while I can't play an RTS that way.

[ncallaway]

> I can play XCOM while eating a sandwich or drinking coffee, while I can't play an RTS that way.

To be clear, Frozen Synapse is also a turn-based strategy game. You can enjoy your sandwich or coffee while playing. The difference it's you and your opponent plan your turn simultaneously. But you are still fundamentally planning a turn.

The aspect I enjoy about the mechanic is it leaves a lot more uncertainty in the air when planning in the turn. I still have to take into account the uncertainty about the opponent's actions while planning my turn.

[the_af]

A bit like Laser Squad Nemesis then? (Also by the Gollop brothers if I recall correctly).

I should be ashamed: I own Frozen Synapse, but I think I've never played it. Yet another impulse buy :(

[eru]

Yes, Frozen Synapse pays explicit Homage to Laser Squad Nemesis. I think it's quite a bit more polished though, because it's deliberately more streamlined.

If I remember right, LSN still had tiles (and thus probably discrete units of time)?

Frozen Synapse, for better or worse, goes for a much more continuous approach. Making for a very different feeling game.

[uzakov]

Wasteland 3 is another great tactical game, that I personally enjoyed playing. It has the Fallout 2 feel, that is hard to describe

[vanderZwan]

> I always felt the serialising that X-COM enforced to be an artificial limitation.

I was about to argue that it might have been a technical limitation too, but Dune II, the first real-time strategy game, came out two years before X-COM so technically that can't be quite right.

On the other hand, it also requires a certain set of programmer skills and specialized knowledge of how to simulate such systems, and opens up a combinatorial explosion of scenarios that can be much harder to design around if you also want to include lots of complex possibilities. Serialized turn-based design is much easier by comparison.

[eru]

Yes, I think it's not so much a programming limitation per se, but a game design limitation. It's a much tougher nut to crack how to present the choices available to the player in a sensible and understandable way.

Notice how Frozen Synapse is otherwise a much simpler game with fewer elements than even just in the tactical mode of the original X-Com.

[ethbr0]

It's fair to say that, going further back in computer game history, something being possible didn't mean it was possible for you.

Programming expertise and information was a lot less accessible and evenly distributed.

You couldn't just "hire a graphics person", because no one knew what the hell that was. You hired a smart computer person / artist, and hoped they could learn everything. One reason the history of early games companies has so much "and then we hired this person named X, who had no training, but turned into one of the world's best Y's."

[eru]

I think we are mostly in agreement.

What I am saying is that just implementing a very crude version would have been doable in the early 90s.

What was much harder was to come up with a way to present the information and make the planning intuitive and fun. Including the programming aspects of that.

[chris_st]

Really enjoyed both X-COM and also highly recommend Frozen Synapse. Great take on turn-based tactics... really liked how I didn't really know what would happen after setting up my moves!

[Paradigma11]

There was also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_Squad_Nemesis which was also simultaneous turn based. I don't like the puzzle aspect of FS since it's deterministic. It is all hard edges, hit or miss. Maybe if I spent more time with it it might me different.

[eru]

At the core, Frozen Synapse is a sophisticated version of Rock, Paper, Scissors. Yes, once both players made their choices the game plays out deterministically, but basic game theory tells you that randomising your strategy is the way to win.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_(game_theory)#Pure_an... for randomised strategies

Since you don't know exactly what your opponents are planning, you can't solve your turn like a deterministic puzzle.

I do admit there are some puzzle like aspects. Eg I often picked two or three plans that I thought my opponents are likely to choose, and tried to work out a plan of my own that would counter all three of them.

[twic]

Frozen Synapse has a good soundtrack too!