[Thorentis]

> However she, as a sentient being, has agency. As such, she (not me) gets to decide what happens with her body.

You're confusing the idea of removing the other person's free will and the obligations that being in a sexual monogamous relationship carry.

In a monogamous sexual relationship, if one person refuses to have sex much more frequently than the other, then that can very quickly destroy the relationship. Humans are sexual beings, and being in a monogamous relationship means you have only one outlet for that sexuality available to you.

Instead of sex, consider conversation. How long would a relationship last of one person started refusing to talk to the other person, at moments seemingly for no reason to the other person? How long would that last? If I said that being in a relationship obligates you to communicate with the other person, would you object on the basis of removing the other person's agency by placing such an obligatiom on them?

Sex should never be forced. But entering into any relationship carries with it rights and responsibilities. If you are refusing sex for no good reason, then it is a sign that you no longer wish to meet the obligations of a monogamous relationship. The two people can either break up, or try to work through things. But such an arrangement can't be endured forever.

[MauranKilom]

There is a fine difference between agreeing to do something as a personal sacrifice and being obliged to do so.

Yes, it is reasonable to expect some level of sacrifice. That it is given voluntarily is part of making a relationship work well. But just that being unwilling to make certain sacrifices would put a strain on the relationship does not in turn imply an absolute obligation to them.

> How long would a relationship last of one person started refusing to talk to the other person, at moments seemingly for no reason to the other person? How long would that last?

Having been privy to a (non-amorous) relationship in which exactly this happened, I can tell you that trying to obligate the non-communicative side to communication is exactly the wrong thing to do. That doesn't mean that the relationship is over, but it does mean that there is a grave problem. Solving that problem is the way forward, not insisting on some "moral obligation".

> If you are refusing sex for no good reason

I'm a bit confused what you consider "good reasons". Do I need a "good reason" for not wanting to dance? Or for not wanting to go to the pool? Is it necessary that I communicate my entire mental state in a way that makes the decision retraceable for you, or do you trust me when I say that I really don't feel like it? Or is it only physical incapability that counts?

[nobody9999]

>You're confusing the idea of removing the other person's free will and the obligations that being in a sexual monogamous relationship carry.

I don't believe that I am. I agree with just about everything you wrote. Where we diverge is that I do not agree that anyone, regardless of relationship status is obliged or required to engage in sexual activity to which they do not consent.

>In a monogamous sexual relationship, if one person refuses to have sex much more frequently than the other, then that can very quickly destroy the relationship. Humans are sexual beings, and being in a monogamous relationship means you have only one outlet for that sexuality available to you.

That is absolutely correct. That said, just because two people are in a monogamous sexual relationship, that does not mean consent for sexual activity isn't required.

If one partner is unwilling or unable to consent, whether at the frequency the other partner desires or at all, that's going cause stress in the relationship.

And if that continues, it's likely that the relationship will fail.

The question then is why doesn't this person wish to consent, given that they are in a romantic/sexual relationship?

In order to avoid that eventuality, the people involved need to communicate and work out how to maintain the relationship together.

If that's not possible, then the relationship should probably end, as you correctly point out.

My points are simple and two-fold:

1. Consent for sexual activity, regardless of the nature of a relationship is never optional;

2. No one is, or should be, obligated or required to engage in sexual activity if they don't wish to do so.

Sure, there are times when folks may not be feeling particularly frisky, but in a healthy relationship that shouldn't be a big deal.

What's more, in a healthy relationship, the partners desire each other. In fact, there are few things in this world that are hotter than being desired.

And if there is a genuine disconnect in the level of desire, that needs to be worked out through strong, open communication, honesty and the hard work that's required to maintain any relationship.

However, in an unhealthy relationship (there can be many reasons for those, as Tolstoy opined[0]), it may not be possible to work these things out. This may cause discomfort, hurt and pain for those involved. It may be possible to make such a relationship healthy, but expecting that someone who, for whatever reason, is unwilling to consent to sexual activity should engage in such activity because they are obliged to do so due to the nature of the relationship is being abusive.

To be clear: Yes, people in romantic/sexual relationships, including monogamous/exclusive relationships generally do engage in sexual activity. In fact, that's one of the wonderful things about such relationships and I'm all for it!

And when there is an issue surrounding sexual activity (or anything else for that matter), it's important to communicate clearly and honestly with each other and make the effort to work through such issue(s). I'm all for that too! IMHO, clear, honest communication is the most important thing to maintaining a healthy, happy relationship.

All that said, please review these points one more time:

1. Consent for sexual activity, regardless of the nature of a relationship is never optional;

2. No one is, or should be, obligated or required to engage in sexual activity if they don't wish to do so.

And explain to me how they are inappropriate in the context of any relationship, including exclusive, monogamous ones.

I'd be very interested to read your thoughts.

[0] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7142-all-happy-families-are...

[Thorentis]

You seem caught up in this notion of abuse and consent, without any regard for the other side of the story.

If I was in a monogamous relationship where I had agreed to not have sex with anybody else, and the other person for the duration of that relationship refused to have sex with me - is that not abusive? There are two sides of the coin here.

How do you draw the line between consent and obligation in everyday life? If you are compelled to do something by your boss that you'd rather not do (a boring task), have you consented to doing it if you do the task but you would rather not? If you're obliged to give way on the road, have you given consent even if you would rather not, but you do anyway?

You need to distinguish between things that we do even though we wouldn't of there were not external factors, and things we do because we know we ought to do them. If my wife asks me to take the trash out, even if I don't feel like it, I know I ought to do it and I will. If I ask her to help me with something, I know sometimes she might groan but then do it anyway. In a world without obligations, would she choose to do the task I've asked of her? Or would I do the task asked of me? Probably not. But life has many obligations. There is so much more nuance beyond what you've tried to summarise through a framework of consent.

[nobody9999]

>If I was in a monogamous relationship where I had agreed to not have sex with anybody else, and the other person for the duration of that relationship refused to have sex with me - is that not abusive? There are two sides of the coin here.

Absolutely. But the response to such a situation shouldn't be to push your partner (who, presumably, you care about) to do something he or she doesn't want to do.

If someone is in that situation, there are clearly issues with the relationship that are bigger than just whether or not you get to stick it anytime you feel like it.

As such, if you value that relationship, it would probably be of value to communicate about what may be behind the issue.

And if your partner is unable or unwilling to at least attempt to do so, that's absolutely abusive and detrimental to the relationship.

At that point, you need to ask yourself if it's possible to rescue the relationship.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that I view relationships only through the lens of consent. I do not.

In order to make a relationship work, everyone must be willing to communicate, be patient and compromise. And that extends to sex too.

And there's a difference between "Oh honey! The kids just wore me out today. Let's get some sleep and we can get my sister to take the kids for the weekend and we'll smear every piece of furniture with our bodily fluids!" and "Don't touch me, asshole!"

In the former scenario, you might reasonably take some steps to encourage your partner to push past their fatigue and enjoy each other.

However, even in that instance, if your partner for whatever reason, is still unwilling, you do not have the right to demand sex.

In the latter scenario, one would expect that rather than pressing the issue, you'd try to understand why your partner is not only unwilling to to have sex, but why they're so hostile.

In either case, you do not have the right to insist that your partner do stuff they don't want to do.

Why is that so hard to understand?