[Zippogriff]

> Perhaps that's because you want the wrong thing for some reason.

I can't really parse this but from the best sense of it I can get, I reckon the most correct response is, "no, u".

[EDIT] Oh and also:

> You have never experienced this, so how could you possibly know? Also, no it wouldn't.

It's really incredible how often relatively straightforward conversations on HN end up veering, pointlessly, into theory of the mind and epistemology.

[dang]

That's not an HN thing, that's an internet thing (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...)

If you find yourself getting sucked into a "no, u" dynamic, the only thing that works is to step away. That's hard in the moment (because it feels like ceding the field to the obviously-wrong, obviously-inappropriate other) but then you win. And we all win.

Certainly when an internet thread becomes so generic as to reach "theory of mind and epistemology", it was time to walk away a long time ago. It's hardly likely that any internet forum will ever generate anything new or valuable to say about such things, and certainly not in the middle of a tit-for-tat activation.

[wayneftw]

> I can't really parse this...

Allow me to make it very simple: You didn't give any reasons for your opinion. You just gave your opinion.

> ...I reckon the most correct response is, "no, u".

If you're used to that sort of argumentation, I suppose that is what you'd reckon.

> It's really incredible how often relatively straightforward conversations on HN end up veering, pointlessly, into theory of the mind and epistemology.

Apple has never enabled notifications for PWAs on iOS. Therefore, you couldn't possibly know that your "UX on iOS is better without them even being possible" because you have nothing to compare to.

What about that speaks to "theory of the mind and epistemology" in your opinion?

Perhaps you're confusing web notifications with PWA notifications. Perhaps you're thinking that Apple couldn't possibly do it any differently from Android where every website can prompt you to give notifications.

Gee, I wonder if your whole problem couldn't just be solved by letting you opt into the whole idea of PWA notifications? Then you could never turn on that switch and happily live your life without ever thinking about them again.

Somehow, you'd rather force everybody else to do it your way instead of giving them a choice and I find that to be rather deplorable.

[Zippogriff]

You explicitly claimed it wouldn't be worse. Consider applying your own standards to that claim.

Consider also that it's possible to assert something without perfect knowledge of its truth. Usually context is sufficient to gather the level of certainty being expressed, or the implicit perspective from which it holds true, without hedging and defensively weakening every little statement.

> > Perhaps that's because you want the wrong thing for some reason.

> Allow me to make it very simple: You didn't give any reasons for your opinion. You just gave your opinion.

I'm glad you translated it because I'd never have gotten the second claim from the first. Phew.

> What about that speaks to "theory of the mind and epistemology" in your opinion?

Your entire objection, which seems to carry some unusual assumptions about the power and utility of thought experiments and the extent of the value of comparing similar, but not identical, things. Notably, it appears to reject them as being to any useful degree, even for evaluating a user-facing OS feature valid or enlightening.

> Gee, I wonder if your whole problem couldn't just be solved by letting you opt into the whole idea of PWA notifications?

Making them opt-in and off by default, ideally with no way for the app to tell whether they're enabled, would be an improvement, but allow me to repeat my reason from my post which, you claim, contained no reasons: I do not want features that make webapps more viable on iOS, because I do not like webapps and prefer an environment that makes me less likely to encounter them for any reason. So simply not having the feature would be even better.

[EDIT] nb. I entirely get disagreement with my position on a variety of grounds, but I find such apparent failure to even engage with it, and rejection that it is a position, harder to understand.

[wayneftw]

> You explicitly claimed it wouldn't be worse. Consider applying your own standards to that claim.

Having a choice is always better than not having one with regards personal preferences. That's my standard. What's yours aside from "I don't like web apps"?

> Your entire objection, which seems to carry some unusual assumptions about the power and utility of thought experiments and the extent of the value of comparing similar, but not identical, things. Notably, it appears to reject them as being to any useful degree, even for evaluating a user-facing OS feature valid or enlightening.

For example?

You are needlessly complicating the conversation with all this meta-drivel. It's pretty simple really: You want everybody to have no choice. I want people to have a choice. I stated my position pretty clearly. You're just giving opinions and philosophizing.

> Making them opt-in and off by default, ideally with no way for the app to tell whether they're enabled, would be an improvement...

Good - we've moved from zero choice, to some choice. We're making progress!

> because I do not like webapps and prefer an environment that makes me less likely to encounter them for any reason.

That's not a reason. That's an opinion and a personal preference. You didn't state the reason for your opinion that nobody should be able to get PWA notifications.

> I entirely get disagreement with my position on a variety of grounds, but I find such apparent failure to even engage with it, and rejection that it is a position, harder to understand.

You still haven't stated anything other than your opinion.

[Zippogriff]

> You still haven't stated anything other than your opinion.

That's all either of us have been doing. [EDIT] and an opinion can be a reason! They're not mutually exclusive. Do you need an itemized list of problems I have with webapps, with figures backing them all up (else they'd be opinions again, I guess)? I figured that'd been discussed to death, especially on HN.

> Having a choice is always better than not having one with regards personal preferences. That's my standard. What's yours aside from "I don't like web apps"?

I like being able to choose a platform that makes it hard for developers to get by with a webapp, pushing them toward native apps. See? I like choice too.