[wqsz7xn]

Am I the only one that is extremely wary of psychoactive substances being used as magic bullet treatment method? You tend not to hear about the people that have had a permanent increase of anxiety and long lasting schizophrenia from usage. This drug does not work well for everyone and you only find out once you have taken it. A bad trip can ruin some people permanently.

[kinghtown]

A great part of the horror of a bad trip is how regular people treat someone who is experiencing one, or has been damaged by one. I would rank interactions with the police as a far greater danger than like an out of body experience into god knows what.

I have a buddy who did like 150 hits of LSD 20 years ago and there is a great sadness in him and how he can’t really share that experience with most people. People, who’ve never played around with LSD tend to become super condescending with him like he’s damaged.

The thing is, these studies or motions to incorporate psychedelics into therapy are never advocating for super human doses. I can definitely see the value in micro to moderate doses coupled with qualified therapy for non schizophrenic consenting adults. A full on like wizard trial into the nightmare heart of psycho hell with heroic doses of whatever is not what these guys are arguing for.

[trabant00]

> there is a great sadness in him and how he can’t really share that experience with most people. People, who’ve never played around with LSD tend to become super condescending with him like he’s damaged

Maybe he really is damaged? Happy and sad states are required to be in some balance for a person to in a relative state of equilibrium.

I don't know your friend, maybe he is balanced and people who are at the other extreme (always need to be or to present themselves as happy) make fun of him.

But I do know drug users who can't enjoy anything any more.

[kinghtown]

Damaged though implies broken or dysfunctional. Thing is, this guy is 100% coherent. His problem, to put it in a word as an outsider to whatever is going on in there, is closer in meaning to injury. I used to take mushrooms, acid, salvia like every other day for a couple of years when I was really at it and honestly I have trouble fathoming what 150 units of LSD would do. Anyone whose done a lot would shudder to think about the possibilities of what that’s like.

I get this odd feeling when talking to him that he is mostly playing along with conventions. Like he is well aware how close everyone is to madness. Or maybe there is a layer to reality outside of our senses, very strange and more real than real. Like for people who have never done anything crazier than smoking a joint or getting really drunk.. it’s pretty easy to disregard psychedelics as just intoxication. But the upper doses can be transformative to say the least.

I know people who have never done drugs who don’t seem to enjoy anything either.

[trabant00]

Nihilism for example is extremely coherent as a philosophy. Not a good way of living though.

[Out_of_Characte]

>Maybe he really is damaged? Happy and sad states are required to be in some balance for a person to in a relative state of equilibrium.

No, your exact comment is why trippers are discouraged from talking about their life altering profound experiences because you seem to be judgemental of the fact that it is drug induced.

>But I do know drug users who can't enjoy anything any more.

This really gets me. Its such a stereotype. What effect precisely are you referring to? To my knowledge there is no substance that alters your brain that permanently. Except brain damage and extreme overdoses, which has little to do with their effect and everything to do with dose and responsible use. There's a difference between people who tend to use drugs and how drugs affect people.

strange chemicals are the few things that seem to reach people in the center of their being. exercise being the second on the list for those starved from it.

[trabant00]

Either tripping can be life altering or it can't alter your brain permanently. Both can't be true at the same time.

[Out_of_Characte]

Only if you believe that life altering moments must be rooted in a permanent change in your brain. Plenty of people have "life altering moments" without drugs. Its just interesting that a select few chemicals cause most people to believe they have had such a moment. It also seems to be backed up by actual significant behaviour change, which is rare in most social studies. This doesn't mean in any way that these changes are permanent. Nor does the effectiveness of the drug prove that it must be linked to some permanent change in the brain. Not in the same way malnutrition in children does. or b12 deficiency.

What exacly do you mean by "Alter your brain permanently"?

[scns]

Maybe one of these books could help him: https://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Good-New-Mood-Therapy/dp/0380...

https://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Great-Revolutionary-Treatment...

The first one helped me understand how the mind influences the emotions, haven't read the second.

[tayo42]

I think people just don't or can't talk about unrelatable things, idk if it's just anti drugs. Like no one really wants to talk about your cool vacation you went on.

[OneGuy123]

Nothing bad will happened when interacting with police if you do as they say.

Look at all the police videos on LiveLeak etc...you will see a common thread in all arrests gone wrong: the suspect didn't do as he was told despite repeated warnings.

[chownie]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver#Shoo...

Easily debunked. The police are not absolute, they are human beings. Some of them are not suitable for the position of power and use it to abuse others.

[OneGuy123]

Debunking it with a rare example?

Are you truly generelizing to all arrests based on a few shitshows?

You know how many police officers get killed by trying to arrest people peacefully?

[IgorPartola]

I can’t tell if your comments stem from ignorance or willfully ignoring facts but in either case kindly stop and listen because what you are saying is incorrect and wrong.

Do YOU know how many police officers get killed trying to make peaceful arrests? Do YOU know how many black people get killed by the police during peaceful arrests? Because I guarantee you that you do not. I am too tired of people like you commenting like this so I’m not going to put in the work of looking things up for you. Please educate yourself on this matter before speaking about it.

[teataster]

Never have I ever had a a pleasant interaction with law enforcement. I think that is what was implied by above poster, nothing to do with getting shot.

[kinghtown]

I should’ve been more clear- I meant to say that interacting with the police on psychedelics is way more dangerous than just about any scary experience you may encounter while tripping out. If your having a really bad trip then the police can only make it worse, strap you down in a bed or lock you up with really bad people. They may even kill you. It’s very possible that a bad trip could be turned around with only a peanut butter and banana sandwich followed by a bike ride with a radio. Honestly, the government and most normal people included are ill-equipped and unqualified to deal with people on psychedelics.

[e40]

Philando Castile was 100% complying with the officer who shot him.

EDIT: s/office/officer/

[LocalH]

how does that boot taste

[trabant00]

I am especially worried about how drugs are presented in popular culture now a days. Very popular people (Joe Rogan for example, but far from the only one) keep repeating how good drugs can be for you, what a miracle drug they can be - drop smoking in one mushroom trip, how we wrongly fought against their mass adoption, etc.

Meanwhile spending time in circles where drugs are used you don't have to search at all to find plenty of examples of people who ruined their lives. Even weed can do that. And while it mostly applies to young people I have several examples of 35+ with no prior problems getting some very destructive habits. MDMA has completely changed a closed friend of mine (early forties) for the worse. Psychedelics? That's some very powerful stuff that should be handled with extreme care. Meanwhile you have youtube channels presenting them as you would have a beer.

I used to be pro legalization 10-15 years ago. Right now I would investigate the problem for at least 10 years as full time job before considering a position.

[Nursie]

> Meanwhile you have youtube channels presenting them as you would have a beer.

Well, you should be careful about that beer. Actually you should probably be more careful about that beer.

If you feel people are being too blase about cannabis, then you ought to be horrified at how popular culture treats alcohol. Alcohol is toxic, it's a killer in both acute and chronic scenarios. It's carcinogenic, harmful to a lot of your internal organs, it's addictive, it's fattening, it can even cause seizures if stopped too quickly. It causes mental health problems and mental decline. It really is one of the worst drugs and its annual death-toll beats out all other drugs combined.

No drug use is without problems, but this societal attitude that "drugs" are bad, but "just a beer" is fine... it's flat out deluded.

So I have no problem treating a lot of forms of drug use, particularly of drugs like cannabis and other less-harmful substances, just like someone having a beer.

[trabant00]

I agree on alcohol issues 100%. But drugs are in addition to alcohol, not instead of. And we figured the troubles with alcohol way too late to have any chance of removing it from its potential abusers. Drugs, especially synthetic, we understood their danger before they became socially acceptable.

[Nursie]

> But drugs are in addition to alcohol, not instead of.

What do you mean by that?

How is that relevant to whether we should treat drugs the same as or differently to "having a beer" ?

In particular you seemed to think it was wrong that they were treated the same or similarly by youtubers - but if the relative harms are comparable or even lesser for many drugs, why is this wrong?

Do you think if more drugs were legal alcohol consumption might not drop in some places?

There appears to be some evidence that in states with legal cannabis, for instance, binge drinking declines - https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeadams/2018/04/05/binge-drin...

[trabant00]

Weed and beer are comparable imo. I would even pick weed as the healthier option. But synthetic drugs exist and those are a different story.

And what I ment with that is that you would unleash some other abusable substances into society.

[Nursie]

Most 'synthetic' drugs are safer than alcohol too.

Psychedelics offer little in the way of physical risk and are not addictive in the same way.

Honestly they concern me far less than alcohol. It's booze, tobacco, meth, cocaine and heroin you want to really watch out for.

(edit - and we can probably include synthetic cannabinoids in there as well)

[hutzlibu]

I am still pro legalization, even though I fully agree with you on the dangers of wrong presentation.

But I believe this is part of the criminalisation and demonisation. From the official channels, like media and school drug prevention(in germany), it was mostly a simple "don't do it" "it is all bad". While the cool, a few years older nutheads presented it as magic.

If it would be legal, people could talk about it more openly and share their experience freely to the younger generation and we could help the addicts more easily, if it would not be so stigmatized, like it is now.

In my area there is a great usage of amphetamines (with the root source of bad economy, though), but if those people look for official help, they have to fear of their children being taken away, etc.

[LargoLasskhyfv]

Is it even sure your close friend had MDMA, instead of something similar, but different, like it is common on the black market?

I'm still pro legalization of almost anything regarding psychoactive drugs. Not even prespription, just over the counter as I see fit, but with clear labeling of ingredients, dosage, and mandatory quality control to exclude any adulteration.

IMO most of the shit that happens results from not knowing exactly what it is, how it has been adulterated, and unknown potency/dosage combined with stupid undergrond lore/disinformation because of criminalization.

This is even true for weed, which can be treated with all sorts of nasty stuff, either to make it weigh more, to hide bad quality(make it smell better, feel more sticky, look like good weed), or to make it more potent, and therefore addictive. I mean imagine smoking lead laced(for adding weight) weed, combined with some PCP(to make it hit more).

Not to forget the use of pesticides during growth and anti-molding agents for long storage in bags. Many of them are nerve poisons for humans.

This has happened, and it will continue to happen again and again as long as it is criminalized.

By insisting on carefully trialling for at least 10 years you are just prolonging these uncertainties, and deny the interested users a safe product.

All that uncertainty is self-inflicted by prohibition, especially for non-synthetic drugs. Absolute ignorance of looooong usage in many cultures.

[goatsi]

>Is it even sure your close friend had MDMA, instead of something similar, but different, like it is common on the black market?

That isn't the case recently if you look at the data. The discovery of new precursors a few years ago drove down the price of MDMA in Europe to the point where it is cheaper and easier to obtain than the possible replacements. Even in the US the flood of methylone and it's cousins is over. Meth is still sold as MDMA when pressed into pills, but those are pretty easy to distinguish.

[quickthrowman]

> Psychedelics? That's some very powerful stuff that should be handled with extreme care. Meanwhile you have youtube channels presenting them as you would have a beer.

Uh... alcohol is infinitely more dangerous than psychedelics, both potential and actual damage caused.

Alcohol is the most dangerous drug we have. Drinking too much at once can kill you (psychedelics can’t), discontinuing habitual use can kill you (only alcohol and benzos!).

Then we have the effects alcohol has on judgement and behavior, which aren’t good! Alcohol causes or exacerbates a ton of social problems.

[trabant00]

Everything you said is correct. BUT: drugs will be in addition to alcohol, not instead of.

[c22]

What do you mean by this? Almost nobody I know mixes psychedelics with alcohol.

[trabant00]

We know different people then. But that was not what I ment. I was talking about legislators looking at the whole society, not individuals. And drugs are even more things that can be abused in addition to existing alcohol which they tried to stop but could not.

[Nursie]

And they've managed to stop "drugs".

LOL.

[LocalH]

Psychedelics have little abuse potential. Drug abuse is usually an attempt to avoid feeling your existing feelings. Psychedelics will magnify your existing feelings, good or bad.

[vwat]

All of the popular psychedelics are extremely potent anti inflammatories, even at sub-psychoactive doses. And the effect lasts for months. And inflammation touches almost every modern illness... so it is a magic bullet. They also cure cluster headaches and migraines and people who suffer from those would certainly call it a magic bullet. Should we be testing every possible application to see what sticks? Yes.

[voisin]

Source?

[vwat]

There should be a paper floating out there about DOI, which is actually the most potent anti inflamatory, more so than Lsd. He has other papers too. Sorry I’m on my phone.

[dekken_]

You should be wary, but it's always context dependent. Could it make your life better vs could it make it worse.

In a hospice setting it's kind of hard to make your life worse, so it's reasonable (IMO) to try somethings there.

[iamericfletcher]

I find it interesting that you think a life is worse because that life is in a hospice setting.

[dekken_]

I said your life can't get worse in a hospice, you'll likely be dead soon.

[teataster]

Psychedelics are not necessarily pleasant, should not be taken lightly: do your research and understand the risks if interested.

AFAIK, schizophrenia is not caused but revealed by usage. AFAIK, most people suffering schizophrenia or psychotic attacks under the influence tend to be under 25 yo, which is the population that tends to suffer from those ailments.

I am not a doctor, take my words with a grain of salt and do your own research. If I were to be wrong, I would love to be corrected.

[dekken_]

There seems to be active research into some kinds of schizophrenia arising from a lack of adequate minerals/compounds in the diet, some research suggesting a better quality of life by taking a high dose of niacin

[LatteLazy]

We're basically in the middle of an long epidemic of mental illness in the West. Suicide is the leading cause of death in some age\sex groups.

Existing drugs are low efficacy even in ideal cases, and even lower when you look at how they're used in the real world. Then you have to try and factor in side effects.

These are the factors I think drive this decision.

It's worth noting as well that whether and how severe the various drugs under consideration actually cause the poor outcomes you list remains a matter of debate. Maybe they don't, maybe they do and it's worse than the current worst case prediction. We won't know until exactly these studies are completed...

Full disclosure, I have had severe depression long term though I've been doing a lot better for the last 5 years or so.

[throwaway_pdp09]

Where in the article does it even imply that it's a magic bullet? It doesn't. Quite the opposite as it clearly says:

"Ultimately, Oram concludes, ‘although the increased regulation may have had some impact, the decline of LSD research in the 1970s can be more convincingly explained through the outcome of the clinical trials of the late 1960s’"

> This drug does not work well for everyone

No drug does.

> and you only find out once you have taken it.

true of all prescribed drugs.

[LargoLasskhyfv]

Show me a drug which works well for everyone.

[IgorPartola]

Vitamin C :)

[LargoLasskhyfv]

Hmkay. Wasn't exactly what I had in mind, but technically it counts, I guess.