[throwaway5398]

>Whites will become the minority in U.S and the UK in the coming decades. It's not that different in West Europe, Canada, Australia, etc. Overall it's a good trend for immigrants.

1. The US may become a white-minority country. Europe, not really. Whites are still the majority, and are going to remain so in the distant future. The "Great Replacement" isn't real.

2. Most immigrants to EU countries are from other countries within the EU and white themselves.

3. Many people from outside the EU, even though they're not considered "white" by Westerners, look white from the outside (think of e.g. Arabs) and the differences are purely cultural. Within a few generations you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and "white" people.

4. One's ability to integrate and be welcomed depends far more on cultural differences than "looking" different. This is why people from former colonies immigrate to the country that colonized them - lasting vestigial ties and a common language help far more than sticking to people who share one's skin color.

[skissane]

> 3. Many people from outside the EU, even though they're not considered "white" by Westerners, look white from the outside (think of e.g. Arabs) and the differences are purely cultural. Within a few generations you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and "white" people.

The US government officially considers Arab people to be "white". [1] Some Arab Americans disagree with this and believe they are not "white", other Arab Americans identify with the "white" label and want to keep it. The former group have been lobbying the US government to create a separate category, e.g. "Middle Eastern and North African", thus far non-successfully.

Unlike the US, I don't believe most EU countries have a formally adopted definition of "white" (the EU as a whole certainly doesn't.) But, just like in the US, it would be wrong to think there would be a single viewpoint. So the statement that Arab people are "not considered 'white' by Westerners" is a bit dubious – some Westerners no doubt think that, other Westerners actually do think Arab people are "white", yet other Westerners just don't think about the concept "white" or its definition that much at all, or think that "white" is an arbitrary category which should not be used

[1] https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html

[bonoboTP]

Generally speaking, this question in this form just doesn't come up much in Europe as, "who is white" is much less of a discussion point than in the US, along with all "race" discussions. This is not to say that racism or xenophobia don't exist in Europe, but animosity exists inbetween "whites" as well, and people can hate Arabs without thinking about it in terms of "whites" vs Arabs, and rather thinking about it as "my nation" vs "strangers". Not saying this is much better, just trying to point out that not all parts of the world are obsessed with the American flavor of the concept of race. For one, it's definitely never ever used officially as a concept in many European countries.

[anoncake]

In fact, the idea that races even exist is considered outdated and racist. France recently removed the word from their constitution because of that. The same is being debated in Germany.

[usego]

That doesnt remove the fact that older generation people and many younger too in EU still have "built in firmware" to instantly classify my / foreign culture people. And I doubt this will change for the next generations.

And BLM demonstrations in europe... Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Those are more about protest against goverment ant police than BLM.

[joelbluminator]

"Not saying this is much better, just trying to point out that not all parts of the world are obsessed with the American flavor of the concept of race" We've just witnessed BLM demonstrations all over Europe though. I agree it's less of a thing in Europe, but it definitely exists.

[joelbluminator]

Perhaps some will consider Arabs white (which I doubt), but still many will see them as "other", which is the same thing, especially if they are muslim.

[skissane]

I'm an Australian from a Catholic family of British and Irish descent. My aunt married a Muslim man of ethnic Albanian descent (not actually from Albania, his family come from the Albanian minority in North Macedonia). I've met members of his family on a number of occasions over the years. I never thought of them as "other". I've never really thought about the question of whether he is "white", but his skin has always been paler than my own

[usego]

Australia and US are historically a mix of immigrants from all the world so things are much different there than in "solid culture" countries where xenofobia is a part of life as a result.

[joelbluminator]

He's probably not super religious or you're super progressive. While I respect and appreciate what you said, many many people still think in terms of us and them.

[skissane]

Most Albanian Muslims are not "super religious". His family is about as Muslim as my own family is Catholic (i.e. not very devoutly), but I believe his family's degree of religiosity is pretty much the norm for Albanian Muslims both in Australia and in Europe.

I am definitely not "super progressive".

[joelbluminator]

We can argue about numbers all night long. It doesn't matter if the U.S / UK is 65% white or 40% white. They're much LESS white than they used to be. That's the trend. If you're a visible minority, you'd probably feel more comfortable in NY / Berlin / London today than you would have 50 years ago, and 40 years from now unless something unexpected happens - you'd be even more comfortable. I wasn't aiming for a discussion about race or if "great replacement" is a thing. Only saying that for immigrants it's way better than it used to be, at least by numbers. your 3rd point: I don't believe most Arabs think of themselves as white or are seen as white (nor do they want to be), especially if they are religious muslims, which many of them are. So the difference between them and the dominant culture still exists, even if we're talking about 3rd generation "immigrants". your 4th point: visible minorities have a harder time. It's enough that 1% of the population is racist (it's usually way more), for them to have a sense of being discriminated against. Your colonies example is hit and miss, are French Algerians all perfectly integrated?

[bonoboTP]

Given that Europeans (outside the UK) never have to officially pick a race on paperwork, probably many Arabs haven't given much thought to whether they are "white" and if not then what. You can't apply the American concept of whiteness all over the world. Their skin shades range over a large spectrum and is similar to other Mediterranean people's, like Greeks and southern Italians and Spaniards. Are tan skinned Sicilians white? Who cares, the concept doesn't work the same way in Europe as in the US.

[type0]

> I don't believe most Arabs think of themselves as white or are seen as white (nor do they want to be), especially if they are religious muslims

As far as I know the religion has no effect on your skin color.

[joelbluminator]

being white is not only about skin colour. many jews look white but they certainly don't feel white.

[skissane]

I suspect that outside the US, most Jews rarely if ever think about whether they are "white", much less about whether they feel "white"

US culture is very focused on racial categories – who is and isn't "white". Most other Western cultures are not – European cultures, Australia, etc

I think in Israel, people think about who is Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, Beta Israel, Arab/Palestinian, Druze, Secular vs Religious Zionist vs Haredi, etc, not about whether or not they or others are "white". The question of "who is white" is very American, not one that has a lot of relevance for Israeli society

[joelbluminator]

They probably use some word that differentiates them from everyone else - be it White, Christians, Dutch, Goyim or whatever. In Israel Ashkenazi heavily correlated with appearing "White" btw, and the word White is used when you want to say privileged. So I wouldn't say skin colour isn't a thing there.