[aaronbrethorst]

Totally unsurprising that SC is having quality issues.

"We have a manager that will physically watch us while we're working on the jet and watch us as we go to the bathroom," he says. "I'm a 40-year-old military veteran and I have a 20-something-year-old manager asking me why I use time to use the bathroom."

https://psmag.com/economics/a-tale-of-two-boeing-factories

[esaym]

Sounds sucky to always be watched but, as someone that actually worked in an aircraft repair facility, we'd show up for work at 6am, then a 5 minute "break" at 8am and 10am followed by a 30 minute unpaid lunch from 12-12:30. Then another 5 minute break at 2:30pm followed by work ending at 4:30pm. And that was the schedule for Monday-Thursday followed by 8 hour days on Friday and Saturday. It got old quick and I left that field and went back to school lol.

But the point is, anytime you provide 4 "breaks" a day for bathroom time, you'll get some managers staring at you for breaking the pattern. And don't forget that most tasks in aircraft assembly require 2 people. If you're installing fasteners, you've got to normally have someone on the other side of the assembly to either buck the rivet or put a nut on a bolt. So one person running for the toilet causes work to stop for others.

[txru]

That's just why workers' unions are useful though. Workers need breaks, especially more experienced (older) workers, managers don't want to provide those breaks. The union can work with the workers to determine how many breaks they need, and have the negotiating ability to back up workers whose breaks are being violated like above.

[Alupis]

> That's just why workers' unions are useful though. Workers need breaks, especially more experienced (older) workers, managers don't want to provide those breaks.

The post you're responding to just stated they had 4 breaks a day. I doubt Boeing isn't providing breaks either, since that would be illegal.

It's entirely possible to have a non-union shop and still have highly skilled and fairly compensated employees.

There are always going to be some employees that abuse things - people taking bathroom breaks every hour, 10 minutes at a time, etc. Those are the ones that get let go, when you're not a Union Shop. Unfortunately, for all the good Unions do, they also tend to protect exactly these sorts of employees, making it difficult or impossible to trim poorly performing employees.

[txru]

4 breaks a day isn't either enough or too much in general-- it's very job and industry dependent.

Refusing to provide breaks is illegal, true, but it's trivially easy to legally force employees to take many fewer than they're entitled. Amazon employees in FCs don't piss in bottles because they're very into logistic efficiency of picking...

True, there will always be entities that abuse understandings, employer and employee. The thing is, corporations are superentities with monopsonic power. Employees are units, discouraged from communicating, with limited time in a day to make complaints or study potential improvements to working condition (or law, for that matter).

Unions are a method for setting up a superentity that has the bargaining, informational, and legal power to have a more equal footing with the corporate superentity.

Particularly when Unions have substantial ownership of the company, they have no specific wish to lose dues-paying members or make the company fail.

[Alupis]

> or make the company fail

Hostess famously failed due to the Bakers Union stalling wage talks, even though the Teamsters (representing the other portion of the employees) agreed. Now... nobody works for Hostess and everyone lost their jobs.

Not all Unions actually align their goals with what's best for the employees. Sometimes, it's all about collecting union dues...

[bsder]

> Hostess famously failed due to the Bakers Union stalling wage talks

Except that Hostess had a bunch of debt loaded up from financial "engineering", and Hostess had already asked for and been granted concessions several times.

At some point, you're better off forcing the company into bankruptcy and rolling the dice--especially if the owners are bleeding it of cash via financial arrangements. It's going to be dead anyway; the only question is whether the owners also get to bleed the retirement fund, for example.

If Hostess can't employ those people after bankruptcy and reorganization, then those jobs were certainly dead, anyway.

[txru]

I don't think you can use Hostess as a simple case of the BCTGM getting too hungry for dues, since Hostess has reformed under a new corporation after a defensive bankruptcy filing, to hire an entirely new set of employees. That is something that companies can do, and have done so for centuries.

At the very least, that seems like a case of a mix of vulture capitalism and failed union negotiations.

[CraigJPerry]

>> It's entirely possible to have a non-union shop and still have highly skilled and fairly compensated employees

It’s really hard to do though due to the wrong incentives being in place. You’d need something like worker co-op’s to get the incentives aligned reliably in all cases, such that you don’t need unions.

[Alupis]

Not really. Plenty of businesses don't have unioned employees, and get along just fine. I'd wager there's more non-union employers than union employers in this country.

Unfortunately, unioned jobs where it's known to be difficult or impossible to fire poor performing employees, seems to attract exactly that type of employee, in my experience.

[perl4ever]

Everybody knows the cliched arguments about why job security leads to inefficiency, but have you ever thought that job security leads to efficiency in that people don't resist automation and labor saving innovation as much when it doesn't threaten them?

When someone figures out how to do your job better (or tries) at a private company, then you may need to pretend it's a great thing, everybody goes around pretending, but it's a mortal threat and there are tons of ways to passively sabotage a project.

But when someone figures out how to do your job better at a government agency, either the automation makes it easier for you, or you are (nearly always) guaranteed a transfer to another position. People generally accept that work is a bad thing in itself so if you want to eliminate it, they like you. Laziness has its merits.

I've had some first hand experience in both types of environments.

[CraigJPerry]

>> still have highly skilled and fairly compensated employees

>> get along just fine

Those are 2 different standards. The domain of highly skilled and fairly compensated is a subset of companies getting along just fine. Many workers are unable to fire their boss as it were, due to lack of alternatives. It’s hard to quit when there’s no alternative job and you’re tied to an area.

Like i suggested earlier, you can’t fix this while the information and power asymmetry exists. You can certainly hide it sufficiently in most cases to get along just fine though but that is under-rewarding the labour.

>> difficult or impossible to fire poor performing

Sure, but what’s the cost of that situation?

Sometimes the cost could be so dire it kills the business. That’s not to be sniffed at for sure. Sometimes though it just protects the worker who’s trying but their kid or SO got incapacitated or something equally horrible is happening to them and the last thing they need is fired.

It’s ok if the player with the lions share of the cash pays more than their fair share from time to time.

It’s not ok to protect the player with the lion’s share at all costs even to the detriment of the poorer players.

[Teever]

Unions and union-shops set the standard that non-union shops have to match. If they didn't people would just go across the street and work at the union shop with better benefits and breaks because of the nature of markets.

So in a sense employees at non-union shops are free loaders that reap the benefits of union shops without paying into the organizations that create them

[mjevans]

Such precise schedule keeping is a job for robots. Either factor in time for squishy bio-bot maintenance or switch to machines.

[samatman]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Taylorism substantially predates robotics, and the low-hanging fruit for robot assembly in factories is good and plucked.

[throwaway_pdp09]

I'm no manager but I'd guess some of the most basic rules of management will say "don't do this". Yet some managers do it, like they can't see the damage it's doing to trust and morale, and that it will simply not (unless under special circumstances) bring any higher quality or other value. Yet still it happens. It's so strange.

[HumblyTossed]

Insecurity. "I'm the manager, therefore you WILL do as I say!". These people can boss people around, but they don't know how to manage.

[toomuchtodo]

Good management can’t be taught, it can only be learned through experience. Hence why MBAs used to require work experience or the concept of non commissioned officers in the military. You must experience the suck to learn how not to suck.

With that said, you have to still make an effort to filter out people with no empathy or low emotional IQ from management roles. Having authority over another human being is serious business.

[wnevets]

>With that said, you have to still make an effort to filter out people with no empathy or low emotional IQ from management roles. Having authority over another human being is serious business.

yeah but their resume, they went to "insert super important college here"!

[ashtonkem]

Micromanaging people is a lot of work, and it prevents both the IC and the manager from doing important tasks. Micromanagement either comes from managers not trusting their reports (this can have several causes), or from the manager feeling insecure and finding ways to project control or power over their charges.

[thehappypm]

The exact opposite of good leadership, that is, leading through influence.

[omginternets]

Or perhaps (also) toxic pressure from above?

[throwaway_pdp09]

IME a good manager is an umbrella against the shit raining down from higher. I suppose they're not good so... yep. They folded.

[arethuza]

"There are three kinds of managers: the shit umbrella, the shit funnel and the shit fan."

[ashtonkem]

It’s also extremely rare to find an organization with middle managers that don’t reflect the culture of the organization as a whole. If the middle management is toxic and/or incompetent, it’s a good bet that all layers of management are similar.

[PedroBatista]

Most of these "managers" are just farmhands like the workers. They are there to be the point of contact with the rest of the cattle, do the dirty work of enforcing whatever they were told and to accomplish that they resort to what they "know", which is micro-managing and fear.

The less popular part of this whole thing is that the "quality" of the workers at this particular plant is less than "optimal" let's just leave it at that, and that issue is general knowledge since the beginning.

[numpad0]

Human education hasn't reached to the level that people understand pain and productivity has zero or negative correlations.

[vidanay]

I'd have to resist the urge to walk up to that manager and stare them in the eyes while peeing on their shoes.

[dang]

Please don't do this here.

[speedgoose]

You are very badass.