[akirakurusu]

"Why are so many things so much nicer in Switzerland and Japan?"

Figuring out why this is without fully attributing it to culture has been of great fascination to me. It really is mindblowing just how _good_ things are in Japan, perhaps they're just highly optimized for tourism? The cleanliness, the service, the great care people place in doing things and in their work is just amazing. Anyone here have more insights on this question? What are the non-cultural factors which contribute to this phenomenon that seemingly makes Japan an outlier?

[ta1234567890]

> What are the non-cultural factors which contribute to this phenomenon

It's simply impossible to detach Japan from their culture.

The main thing that stands out to me is their selflessness.

One anectdata: Tokyo feels pretty much the opposite of NYC. In NYC it feels like people are obstacles to avoid on the way to where you are going. Nobody waits for anybody. At first it seems rude, then you realize "it's not personal" and just assume the same stance. It's ok to quickly walk in front of someone who's not paying attention, it's ok to not say hi and just quickly ask what they want. You end up thinking a city that big and with so many people can only be that way. Then you go to Japan and are completely blown away. Everybody is aware of everyone else on the street, even if it's packed people will give you the right of way, they'll wait for you if you are distracted, they'll stop and try to help you if you seem lost, and seemingly everywhere people will be super polite. To me the difference is that in NY (and maybe the US in general), I'm always first and most important, whereas in Tokyo (and probably Japan in general), everyone is more important than just myself.

Two small stories about Japan: 1) a friend was trying to find a place to exchange some USD and got a bit lost, he asked a random person about it, this person walked my friend for 3 blocks to the currency exchange shop. 2) when going through a bus station in Tokyo, one of the escalators was closed for cleaning, when I walked by, the janitor was laying down flat on the floor, holding a special brush, meticulously cleaning the yellow metal mat at the entrance of the escalator, completely absorbed in what he was doing. I've never seen anyone, anywhere else in the world, put so much care into cleaning a public space.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

I worked for a Japanese corporation for decades; regularly traveling to Tokyo.

Japanese culture is really unique; even for East Asia.

They aren’t a “warm and fuzzy” bunch, but every Japanese person is aware that they are a member of Society, with the ensuing obligations and personal boundaries.

Every person in Japan takes their vocation seriously. Quality is absolutely stunning, and is deeply personal to each worker; bordering on obsession. Quality is almost a religious obligation. I feel like a slob, in my own work, compared to them, but most Americans seem to think that I’m way too overbearing about Quality.

That said, it’s no utopia. Management techniques can be difficult to endure, working hours and stress are insane. There aren’t many stress-free jobs, and the nation has a high suicide rate.

I liked to visit, but I don’t think I could live or work there.

[noirbot]

Something I think may be related, but I don't have strong evidence for, is that I think some of the high Quality shown in Japanese work is also evidence of a tendency towards not trying to do everything. Things I've noticed in a lot of Japanese products, both software and hardware:

1. Barebones UI/UX that I would guess isn't very accessible for blind/non-traditional users. 2. Poor user manuals and often even worse translations. 3. Proprietary systems where there's no interoperability outside of that company's ecosystem.

To me, this points to a system that does a very good job making things for the 80% case, and often doesn't even try to accommodate the 20% case.

[wenc]

I have another hypothesis. Japan is a nation of craftsmen. As such, Japan excels at enterprises involving the manipulation of physical objects, like producing cars, cameras, knives, industrial equipment, computer hardware, etc. If you've ever been to Japan, you'd notice that it is a nation where physical objects/systems are very much prized.

On the flip side, Japan doesn't seem to do as well with abstract objects. I'm specifically thinking of software here.

You see, the modern practice of software development is heavily tied to American/European culture, where technology norms, though ostensibly universal, find a natural home in the English language. Consider concepts like generics, devops, dependency injection, static vs dynamic typing: all of these were conceived in English-centric environments. Sure there's nothing linguistically specific about them, but they reflect discourses that happen primarily in English-speaking spaces.

If software development were more mathematical (and maybe more like electronics... somehow less tied to English), I suspect the Japanese would do much better than they are doing right now. (Ruby's Matz is a notable exception, and I suspect his fluent English had something to do with it)

But the fact is, the practice of software development is as much sociology as it is engineering. Large swaths of it are inextricably linked to the culture, norms, and languages of Americans/Europeans. Without a good command of English, one finds oneself merely consuming content but unable to influence the discourse.

[ta1234567890]

Video games is a pretty big counter example to that hypothesis. Japan has been a huge leader and pioneer in that industry, which is all software + art. Another counter example is robotics, which is software + hardware.

[wenc]

I don't know about robotics (still pretty physical, and robot software is very bespoke and specialized).

But video games definitely defeats my hypothesis, as well as anime/manga.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

That point might be valid, but it could be simpler than that. It just might be too expensive to design and document for the world.

Documentation is often very complete; but at an extremely technical level, and not always translated. Japan is a nation of engineers. I think that they expect users to have a certain level of proficiency, and that is reflected in their UX and documentation.

I find that Japanese equipment can be very polished and aesthetically designed, but can be quite intimidating. They produce pretty space shuttle cockpits.

Translation is a fearsomely expensive and fraught process. I have done a lot of localization work. Chinese companies have a similar affect, where their customer documentation is often quite sparse. It's quite possible to get detailed documentation, but it will be in Chinese, from the company. I found that out while I was working in ONVIF (surveillance stuff). The docs that came with the cameras were terrible, but the engineers would be quite helpful, if I could track them down and ask questions.

[noirbot]

Yea, I don't mean it to say there's no reason for it. That underlying issue tracks with what I'd expect.

This comes back to another point that's been made elsewhere in this thread - it's always going to be easier to design and build things for a community that's smaller and more homogeneous. A lot of the countries we think of as being good at building things are also fairly small.

There's probably a term for it, but it's almost the inverse of Economies of Scale. It's easier to make good country-wide standards when most of your country wants the same thing.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

Well, my experience is that some (not all) Japanese companies are quite good at making high-quality stuff at enormous scale.

The company I worked for is renowned for making really nice cameras, and have been doing it for 100 years. People all over the world have wrapped their entire careers around the products of this company (I don't call them out by name, because I don't really want my social media rants to end up on their radar).

As noted above, however, I found that their production magic didn't really work so well for software. As I was one of their software managers, this was challenging.

[keiferski]

> a friend was trying to find a place to exchange some USD and got a bit lost, he asked a random person about it, this person walked my friend for 3 blocks to the currency exchange shop.

This exact same thing happened to me. Two anecdotes don't make a pattern, but...Japan does have a magnificent culture of service.

[marcus_holmes]

It's not service in the sense that is commonly used. They're not "serving" you by helping you. It's more of a "helping me by helping us" attitude, I think.

The UK used to have this level of awareness of others, and almost this level of politeness. One of the complaints about American tourists was that they were so rude. I still find walking in a British city a pleasure (but not London, as it has lost this), because people are aware of everyone else around them, and make space for them. I find the same driving in the UK (but not London) - drivers co-operate together to keep the traffic going smoothly. People regularly let others in front of them, knowing that someone else will let them through in turn.

Walking in an Australian city is a nightmare by comparison - everyone is ignorant of others around them and annoyed if they have to alter their path at all. Driving is even worse. Australian drivers are incapable of merging at a junction because they point-blank refuse to let other people in front of them. Every other car is an obstacle to be got around, a competitor that needs to be "beaten" rather than co-operated with.

[keiferski]

You’re right, service was probably not the right word to use. Maybe duty is a better one to describe the phenomenon.

[nojvek]

Are you sure this wasn’t because you seemed western/white privilege?

When I was backpacking it was shocking to see how other countries will perceive white people as superior and go above and beyond to help them while someone who is Asian gets treated like just another average Joe. It’s opposite for black folks.

It’s like decades of movies and media have built this implicit bias in our brains.

[ta1234567890]

The friend this happened to is not white/western.

However, I did find it very strange and even a bit sad, that almost all posters at Uniqlo featured white/western models, inside their flagship store in Tokyo.

[andrewstuart]

I visited Japan and was just astounded at how much better the society is run.

As a tourist, my obviously naive impression was of a place that is incredibly well organised, that seems to have no trouble investing in its own infrastructure, that is extremely safe and clean and generally prosperous. Where the people seem to have a sense of joy and fun.

Just. so. well. organised.

I really loved Japan. My favorite country in so many ways. I really wish I'd visited when younger and maybe lived there for a while.

I did feel unsafe and threatened during my trip there at one point when an Australian tourist became belligerent and angry when someone (not Japanese of course) stepped ahead of him in a queue. I felt ashamed at his behavior.

[drcode]

I agree Japan is awesome (visited twice) but let's not overlook this: https://www.businessinsider.com/world-suicide-rate-map-2014-...

[asah]

Or homogeneity.

[marcus_holmes]

This. My experience in SE Asia has shown me this. Those really strong family links make people happy and provide a safety net that can't be beaten. But it comes at the cost of suppressing all individuality. No following your dream of being an artist - you need to earn money for the family. No marrying the weird guy your mum hates. No moving city because you need to find yourself.

[icelancer]

It's shocking how HN is just overlooking this trait in addition to the very many related things in this regard that we would consider in America VERY "right-wing" to put it kindly. Having Japanese family members over there and listening to their remarks amuses me since I hear their candid opinions on race and such, but uh... Americans who idolize the country and identify as "progressive" or "liberal" would probably do well to think a bit more before praising their society while condemning the conservative wing of the US political alignment.

[mft_]

Well, unless your premise is that the less savoury aspects of some of Japan’s citizens’ views are responsible for the aspects of their country and society that we might admire (and I don’t think you are saying that) then this is tangential to the question we are discussing.

It’s not unreasonable to acknowledge or even admire some aspects of a person, a company, or a country, while also being aware that there are other aspects that are less admirable.

[icelancer]

>> It’s not unreasonable to acknowledge or even admire some aspects of a person, a company, or a country, while also being aware that there are other aspects that are less admirable.

They are two sides of the same coin. You have the "nice" stuff because of the xenophobic policies. I'd be willing to wager the majority - if not all - of the people that loved Japan were white and didn't think about it at all.

[ncmncm]

...or that hundreds of Tokyo buildings will collapse in the next big earthquake? Or have they been fixed, since we learned about it? If so, how?

[LargoLasskhyfv]

Could ask the same about SF, LA, maybe Portland OR, Seattle, Vancouver and really anything in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone

I'd trust the Japanese more in anything related to earthquake proof building, in spite of their little fuck-up with Fukushima.

At the end of the day, no matter where and when you are, it's your mandatory share of risk in the lottery of life.

Deal with it.

[ncmncm]

The recent claim (maybe 10 ya) was that Yakuza influence forced inspectors to sign off on foundations that were not sound. So they do not have the required pilings. I don't know how that could be fixed, but I don't assert it couldn't be. I assume if it is, it would have been done by now.

[lioeters]

> According to a study by Tokyo University, 87% of the city's buildings have been constructed according to modern anti-seismic standards.

[HarryHirsch]

Compare that to earthquake preparedness in Portland and Seattle. Being underprepared for the next Cascadia earthquake is a policy choice.

[lioeters]

> ..Coastal areas in the region have prepared tsunami evacuation plans in anticipation of a possible future Cascadia earthquake.

> However, the major nearby cities, notably Seattle, Portland, Vancouver, Victoria, and Tacoma, which are located on inland waterways rather than on the coast, would be sheltered from the full brunt of a tsunami.

> These cities do have many vulnerable structures, especially bridges and unreinforced brick buildings; consequently, most of the damage to the cities would probably be from the earthquake itself.

> One expert asserts that buildings in Seattle are vastly inadequate even to withstand an event of the size of the 1906 San Francisco earthquake, let alone any more powerful one.

> Kenneth Murphy, who directs FEMA's Region X, the division responsible for Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Alaska, put it quite dramatically: "Our operating assumption is that everything west of Interstate 5 will be toast."

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1700_Cascadia_earthquake#Futur...

[james_s_tayler]

Depends which end of society you're on.

My sister's in law are up early and on a train for hours into the city where they work until well after dark and are home at about 11pm.

My wife who lives in my home country on the other hand runs her own business from home, sets her own hours and has a lot more free time and independence.

I feel pretty sorry for the workforce in Japan. It's pretty dystopian if you ask me.

It's amazing for kids, university students, senior citizens and if you ever get a day off.

[hn_throwaway_99]

> Where the people seem to have a sense of joy and fun.

I'm going to take issue with that one. Of course "a sense of joy and fun" is subjective, but the extreme social conformism of Japan definitely has its drawbacks.

I mean, take one measurable metric when it comes to "joy and fun": sex. Much as been written about Japan's extremely low birth rates, but that also extends to sex and even just romantic relationships. Decent article: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/japan-m...

[donw]

I live in Japan, and have for about a decade.

You're bang-on when it comes to culture, but it has nothing to do with being optimized for tourism.

Japan is a very conservative country. Change happens slowly here, and Japan does a lot to ensure that people raised here share a common culture, with a strong focus on stability and harmony.

To provide some examples:

- NHK, the national broadcaster, has several series of popular programs showing life across all of Japan -- rural, urban, suburban, every prefecture. There are also programs showing Japanese people living overseas, and showing how they have integrated into the local culture. There is no "rural vs urban" divide in Japan.

- Japanese schools focus heavily on structure and responsibility. Students maintain their classrooms, clean their bathrooms, staff the cafeterias, etc. All of this is under adult supervision, but the kids do the actual work. Discipline is strong as well -- there are real consequences for poor behavior.

- Japan follows the Prussian education model. Compulsory schooling ends at 14 (9th grade). From there, you can immediately begin working, go to a trade school, or go to high school. There is also a professional education track separate from university.

- There is a strong culture around keeping families whole and raising kids as a whole family in Japan. Often the wife will move back home and live with her family shortly before and after childbirth, and there's a lot of cultural reinforcement there.

- Parents are very active in the education of their children, and the locus of responsibility is first on the child, second on the parent.

- The Koban system is fantastic. Police live in their communities, and interact with people every day. You never want to end up on the wrong side of the law -- the conviction rate is well north of 90%, and the accused have very few rights here -- but overall, Japanese police are very polite and professional.

There are downsides to this -- everything comes with trade-offs -- but it delivers a very stable and safe society.

[james_s_tayler]

The no rural vs urban divide thing...

I never ever thought about it before but I see _exactly_ what you mean. And I think you're spot on. There isn't this idea/phenomenon of country folks being very different than city folks, rather there is an extremely strong cultural narrative around how a Japanese person behaves and what it means to be Japanese that transcends the settings in which one lives. The cultural machine just continuously markets Japaneseness to it's citizens.

I agree it comes with good and bad, but for sure when it comes to safety and stability it's huge factor.

[actuator]

Few questions, would be glad if anyone can answer these:

- Would you know of good companies which have a good work life balance in Japan?

- I know among the big tech, Microsoft and Google have offices there. Both seem to pay well as well. Do they have similar WLB as their US offices?

- I have heard of racism, like certain apartments being off limits for non Japanese people. Some clubs only allowing white caucasians among foreigners. How true is this in your experience?

- I have no problem in learning Japanese over time, but without it at the start, is it very difficult to get by?

- Do most people live in Tokyo/Kyoto(where Tech companies seem to be) itself or can you live a bit in outskirts(a bit of greenery) and commute using the fast public transport?

[donw]

Of course. :)

I'm not sure "work-life balance" is even the right concept in Japan.

Japanese companies are structured around the idea that you devote your life to the organization. Overtime and weekend work are common. In exchange, the company will take care of you: you will never be fired, you will be provided with access to a broad social network, a group of friends, a spouse should you desire, and enough salary for your station in life until you reach retirement.

If you are satisfied with that contract, you will be happy. If not, you won't.

Working for a big US-based tech company here, you get the best-ish of both worlds. Salaries are much higher -- although not on par with the US -- and your working environment will be much more familiar.

The downside is that you are very insulated from Japanese society as a whole. The "Gaijin Bubble" is a thing, and it's incredibly hard to break out of.

One of my buddies -- who "happens to be black" as George Carlin would say -- describes Japanese racism as "racism done right".

I'd say I agree with his assessment. I've been denied apartments, had an ex whose family hated foreigners, and been refused entry to a restaurant once, but that's all fairly uncommon. You are unlikely to experience violence, although the police will -- very politely -- pay more attention to you than they would natives.

Tokyoites are used to foreigners, and outside of that, you're a curiosity?

Also, speaking Japanese opens many doors. I once had a nightmare of a time getting a taxi, but they would stop to pick up Japanese people. Once I finally flagged one down, I asked the driver why.

He was thrilled that I spoke Japanese, and mentioned that, in that area, most foreigners (a) couldn't speak the language; (b) wanted a long taxi ride; and (c) often fought with the drivers and refused to pay (taxis are not cheap here).

Remote work is a thing now, but before that, you lived in Tokyo. You can easily live in a bedroom community and commute -- some people do 4+ hours per day on a shinkansen.

On the off chance that I do stay here, I will likely move to a semi-rural area and telecommute full time.

Your company (nominally) pays your commuting costs.

Japanese is straightforward to learn, but you really have to devote time to it. Plan a few years of total immersion.

Also, it's not a European language, so outside of the grammatical differences, there's just a ton of culture where there is no overlap -- I didn't really appreciate just how deep Christianity's roots were in Europe until moving here -- it's crazy.

As a tiny example, the little grill that you cook "Ghengis Khan" on is called a "shichirin" -- which is a specifically-shaped wheel from Buddhist teachings.

[082349872349872]

I've heard an anecdote from a colleague that speaking Japanese moves one from the category of "Gaijin" to "interesting Gaijin", at which point people start volunteering how "we do things." (this is probably true anywhere: it's the fundamental distinction between an expat and an immigrant.)

> Plan a few years of total immersion.

I'd say this is true (although closer to "a couple") even going between european languages and english.

On the other hand, anyone emigrating for cultural reasons might appreciate that learning a language in their host country will be an order of magnitude more rapid than raising and educating a generation or three[1] in their home country.

[1] Has the american character has changed significantly since the publication of The Canterville Ghost in 1887?

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14522/14522-h/14522-h.htm

[actuator]

Hey, thanks for taking the time for answering that. Your answers are realy helpful.

- Definitely an interesting way to look at it, I am not sure whether I would be able to convince myself of this though, based on the cultural difference I have grown up with.

- The US company thing sounds great, even entry level tech roles have $150k+ comps, and I think in Japan that should still be really good.

- I can live with a little bit of racism and I think learning language of the land is kind of a good thing anyway, if I do plan to live long term.

- I think with Covid forcing companies to allow WFH possibly in the long term should definitely make it easier. Japan seems to have beautiful countryside and small towns, so it would be a shame if I don't get to experience that. :)

The culture bit is quite interesting indeed. Other than Buddhism, foreign religions haven't been able to get much foothold there it seems. Even Buddhism lives alongside Shinto and folk religions from what I have read.

I think one more good thing about Japan is their PR is points based and last I checked, I qualified for the fast track one based on points.

A bit worried about the Gaijin bubble thing, I would have assumed even the US company offices would have a lot of Japanese employees.

From one of your remark it seems like you are planning on moving out, are you planning to go back to your home country or some other place?

[donw]

USD 150k is roughly JPY 16M, which is 2-3x an entry-level salary here. Google might be laying that down for new graduates, but they'd be the only ones that are.

[actuator]

Ah, thanks. Will check levels.fyi to get a better estimate.

[fomine3]

> There is no "rural vs urban" divide in Japan.

Hmm maybe not divided like US but exists. Tokyo vs other big cities(Osaka, Kyoto, Fukuoka, Nagoya,..) vs others is popular conflict. Young people move to Tokyo to get jobs or go to univ and never goes back, meanwhile rural areas are losing younger smart people. And all govs and most news are in Tokyo so not considering others well.

I hope covid improves this situation.

[donw]

You are correct, but maybe I should rephrase?

I have never gotten the sense that Tokyo people think that Japan would be better off if everybody living in rural areas were to drop dead tomorrow.

Rather, in grocery stores, foods and fruit proudly proclaim their prefecture of origin -- Iwate, Aomori, Hokkaido.

Tokyoites go to the countryside for vacation, for hot springs, to visit farms, that sort of thing.

Popular sentiment is that Japanese are sad that the countryside is dying, and there's a lot of push -- albeit with very limited success -- to get younger people back out there, because at some point, somebody has to grow the food.

Japan only produces 50% of the calories it needs to feed the population -- the rest are imported. That's a scary place to be in the world right now.

Rural brain drain is a real phenomenon, and related to the fact that Japan... and maybe all governments and large organizations, when I think about it, have a strong centralization pressure, to pack everything together in one place.

It takes active measures to resist that. Distribution is hard, but it pays dividends in terms of resilience and awareness.

[kevindong]

I've only been to Switzerland once and that was during a <2 hour layover in the Zurich airport. As an American used to frequently decrepit American airports/infrastructure, I was seriously shocked at how nice the entire airport was. The aesthetic of the airport was just quintessentially Swiss (aka beautifully minimalistic).

When I pay for something with an American credit card in Europe, the machine prints out a receipt for me to sign. I was buying a snack at a store in the Zurich airport and the clerk actually compared the signature on the back of my card to the signature that I scrawled on the receipt. That was the one and only time I've ever had someone do that.

I generally don't put any effort into those signatures so my signature looked nothing like what was on the back of my card so the clerk actually asked me to try again.

[ghaff]

So they have an archaic system that requires comparing a signature? I'm pretty sure I couldn't match my credit card unless I were trying to do it while looking at the card signature. I hardly consider that a benefit.

And I've been through Zurich. I don't consider it anything special better or worse than going through most major European or American airports. [Oh. I take that back. I had my luggage lost on the way there by SwissAir and it was a nightmare finding who to talk to.]

[wenc]

It's not the Swiss; it's US credit cards.

Most Europeans either use a PIN or contactless (for smaller purchases). US credit cards however have no PIN, and contactless cards aren't yet common in the US, so terminals default to chip/magnetic-strip + signature. When a signature is required, one is supposed to check it against the signature on the card (I suspect we don't do it here in the US because everybody signs and it's too much of a hassle to do it for each transaction).

I've had my signature checked against the back of my card in many places around the world -- so it's not just Switzerland.

Most people abroad usually have this look of surprise when their terminal instructs them to obtain a signature. They usually have a face that says, "Oh! Americans".

p.s. this is changing with mobile contactless. I started using Apple Pay in Europe (before COVID that is). Most contactless terminals recognize my phone as simply another contactless card. (NFC)

[hirsin]

They did that because they were unfamiliar with a system that requires such a check. Every time I've been to Europe and used an American card it's been explained to me that because American cards are so far behind the times they need to specially handle my card instead of using Chip and PIN

[graeme]

You perhaps didn’t go through the terminal for international transiting connections (terminal E?)

It is fantastic. Just about the best airport experience I’ve had. Easy to get from one point to another, nice lounges if you have access, and outdoor viewing decks.

The rest of the airport is just so so. And it’s confusing to get from one terminal to the next.

But terminal E is a marvel. Airports actually have internationally established minimum connection times for flights, based on how long transit is expected to be. Zurich’s is among the lowest.

The other comment covered the credit card issue so I won’t address that part.

[raverbashing]

No the archaic part of the system is actually the American Credit Cards

And to add about Zurich airport, it is indeed very nice but the price of things isn't.

[082349872349872]

We still have this antiquated notion that the more expensive good or service is better, because one gets what one pays for.

(A german doctor once told me a salient difference he noted between germany and switzerland is that if you run into an acquaintance in Aldi in germany, they don't immediately offer an excuse for why they happen to be shopping there that day.)

[mft_]

Likewise, I find understanding why Switzerland is so successful very interesting – especially as it differs dramatically in approach from the other countries in Europe held up as successful and happy societies (the more northerly Nordic countries).

I can’t give a full explanation, but there are a couple of unique aspects of Switzerland that I believe may influence the situation heavily:

1. A strong aspect of Swiss culture is to expect responsibility and interest in the affairs of Switzerland from its citizens. This is reflected, for example, in the very strict rules and tests implemented for foreigners wishing to assume Swiss citizenship, which include a wide variety of questions on the history and current affairs.

2. Allied to this, they have implemented probably the most direct form of democracy I’m aware of in the world. The country is divided into a number of cantons (roughly equivalent to American states) which are largely self governing and self determining, including (for example) setting dramatically different rates of taxation. Further, many issues are decided by way of referendum: votes take place relatively frequently. Lastly, in theory any citizen can generate a new law: a series of votes would be taken on a new suggestion, first at a local level, then at a cantonal level, and then potentially at the national level.

Economically though one aspect I don’t understand is how Switzerland can support such high salaries and high costs of living, in contrast to other countries. (What came first: the high cost of living, or the high salaries?) And therefore with it being an acknowledged expensive place for businesses to operate (in terms of salary costs) why do multinational businesses choose to open or continue operations there, in contrast to other more affordable locations? (Also noting that there is significant skilled inward migration, to support the needs of some of those large businesses.)

[skrebbel]

Non-expert armchair analysis:

I always thought that the key reason Switzerland is richer than surrounding countries is their big financial sector + trickle down economics. And the financial sector got big because of their bank secrecy. Of course culture helps, but I'd wager that without the bank secrecy, they'd be a bigger Tyrol. Innsbruck is nice too but it doesn't lead every magazine's "best place to live in" list.

A cynic might say that Switzerland got rich by helping criminals all over the world get away with their crimes. So Switzerland getting richer ties in with everybody else getting a little poorer (because crime is a tax on society).

I think it's a foreign policy. A very cynical one, which says "we'll happily help other countries get worse, as long as we get better off it". It's not unlike America's offensive neorealism, but with money instead of guns.

[dizz]

Might be of use/help: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/multimedia/switzerland-explaine...

[icelancer]

...have you considered that things are much nicer there but at great cost to the sections of people they consider "not nice?" Especially in Japan?

[tempsy]

homogenous societies are inherently more efficient? the reality is the beauty of America is that we are a heterogeneous one, but there are of course some downsides to that.

[082349872349872]

Considering that I use at least four languages[1] every day, and am thankful[2] to be living someplace that has not yet been completely overrun by chains and big box stores, I'd argue the assertion of a "heterogenous" US might need defending.

On the original question: I think switzerland is nice for two reasons. (a) we didn't blow ourselves up twice last century, which meant that even with little absolute growth we went from being a relatively poor european country to a relatively rich one, and (b) putting more emphasis on quality of life than on hustle results in, well, more quality of life.

[1] It doesn't work for francophones, who have a general swiss (or at best cantonal) idiom, but in swiss-german there are several isoglosses just within my valley that allow me to place a speaker. Granted, my valley has been historically universally catholic, but these days that just means that our protestants and muslims get lumped together in the "not christian" bucket :-)

[2] a french friend put it this way, earlier this century: "Modern europeans are too busy feeling sorry for those poor benighted savages who had the misfortune to be born a few villages over, to bother travelling halfway around the world to bring their superior way of life to people at gunpoint." À mon avis, c pas faux.

[SpicyLemonZest]

In the city I grew up in, official notices were routinely made in English, Spanish, and Vietnamese, and I regularly encountered people speaking Korean and Chinese as well. Even my grandma's rural town, with a population of under 5,000 and an hour's drive to the closest city, has people and restaurants representing four or five different nationalities. If you're perceiving the US as a country where everyone only speaks English and only eats at McDonalds, that's not accurate.

[082349872349872]

Aha, things have improved since last century. When in California I did use spanish as well as english, and in Louisiana french as well as english — but back then the concept of "melting pot" was still current, so one of these languages was clearly the prestige dialect.

Looking at the current cabinet, I'm sure if I scrolled enough in @SecElaineChao I could find some chinese. Sorry for my outdated impression.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Donald_Trump#Announ...

(For comparison, our excomm may have 4 germanophones, 2 francophones, and 1 italophone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Council_(Switzerland)#...

but we utterly lack any mother-tongue sinophones. And although our current president, @s_sommaruga, has some romanche in her feed, she uses much more english.)

[tempsy]

uh yeah you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that a country that is majority white isn't homogeneous because multiple languages are spoken

when I speak of homogeneity I'm talking about race, immigration, etc.

[pinkfoot]

> uh yeah you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone that a country that is majority white isn't homogeneous because multiple languages are spoken

Well, he convinced me. (Largely because I have lived in countries with communities like that).

[Out of curiosity, does my testimony change your mind?]

[tempsy]

no - because Switzerland's population is 70% Swiss, with the remaining mostly from nearby countries that have similar values and complexions. Just because you grow up learning various languages does not mean your society is heterogeneous.

A society where every learns 4 languages and looks the same is homogenous.

[pinkfoot]

I didn't live within 10 000km of Switzerland.

Stop making silly assumptions to narrow the beautiful diversity of the world so as to fit your polemic.

[vikiomega9]

I think it's a little disingenuous to call America a heterogenous society. While the share of population for different ancestries[1] makes it look heterogenous, a large part of the equation is cultural homogeneity. American culture is derived from its anglo history and I'd argue economic and political pressures have forced "model minorities" to forgo their heritage.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_Unit...

[cdavid]

There is a culture of doing things very well up to perfection, at least in certain domains. I don't think it has anything to do with tourism. One folk story is that this is linked with the perpetual destruction of things in Japan, because of natural elements, etc. so there is an emphasis on controlling the process as most things tend to be short lived.

You also need to be careful about cleanliness. If you go into more traditional areas, things tend to be quite messy. Japan's record in terms of pollution is not that great either.

You need to live there for a while to start seeing the other side of the story on the social side. Social pressure is huge, starting from early age. Huge gender gap in almost every metric you can think of. People who do not conform are push out of the society very violently. For example, have you noticed how little you see intellectually disabled children ? Hint: it is not because Japanese are particularly immune to it. Also, why do young Japanese women all have black hair ? Hint, it is not because all Japanese woman have black hair. Etc.

I love the country, the culture and the people, have lived there most of my adult life, but as in every culture, once you go beneath the surface, you see that it is a bit less bright than it appears. There is also a tendency from a certain faction of the Japanese society to believe in the uniqueness of Japan, called nihonjiron, a set of essentialist nonsense particularly popular on the extreme right for obvious reasons.

[wenc]

> Also, why do young Japanese women all have black hair ? Hint, it is not because all Japanese woman have black hair. Etc.

Curious what you mean by this? Most Asian people have naturally black hair.

If anything, there was a period in the late 90s-2000s when most young Japanese people dyed their hair brown (it was a fashion fad), so if you saw an Asian person with brown hair, it was likely they were Japanese.

[cdavid]

I forgot to mention specifically in schools, which is where until last year every girl had to dye their hair black: https://japantoday.com/category/national/tokyo-public-school...

[calinet6]

Appreciation of systems.

Continuous improvement, and respect for people.

They are closer to this reality than most societies. It shows.

Yet, they are not without problems, which are inextricably linked to the same culture. There are still tradeoffs.

[totetsu]

As a Japan resident and expat from a small south pacific nation you may of heard of recently, I don't find Japanese "baseline execution quality" to be categorically better. There are a lot of places where it is worse.

> Buses and trains are better (and more punctual); Japan's public transport is great.(where there is money)

> low-end food is tastier; 50/50 on this. Maybe gyudon or kaiten-zushi are tasty, but a lot of the low end food is over processed, over packaged, over sweetened, uninspired imitations of food, factory made, prepared by low wage workers, with all the challenging and exciting bits take out.

> cheap hotels are more comfortable; you even get complimentary right wing nationalist literature in the bedside table.. but This is probably true.

> streets are cleaner; People just throw things where no one can see, when no one is looking. They neatly tie up their convenience store rubbish in its plastic bag, and throw it into a stream. dump their fireworks and BBQS on the beach, fluorescent lightbulbs in the forest,

> grocery stores and corner stores are nicer; Every thing comes in sooo much plastic, and the selection is very limited. Corner stores are all franchises of a few big players, who don't share much profit with local owners or suppliers. sure Fami-chikin is tasty, if you don't think about where it came from.

> ostensibly unremarkable villages have more beautiful buildings and are more pleasant places to spend a few days.;

Sure they are nice to "spend a few days". But a village is supposed to be the centre peoples lives. These nice villages with cool old buildings are emptying out fast and becoming abandoned along with the rural way of life because of the lack of immigrations and the economy being so centralised on Tokyo.

It strikes me that all the writer's points are very much about what appeals to a middle class visitor. Is this a good metric to judge a society by?

[ffggvv]

why can’t you just attribute it to culture? it’s clearly that

[nemothekid]

You can, but it looks like everyone else in this thread is lazer focused on Japan (likely due to the prestige of Japanese culture).

But that doesn't explain Switzerland. Is Switzerland closer to Japanese in culture than they are to Dutch? I think obviously not, but from the thread you would assume otherwsie.

[badestrand]

Both countries (Switzerland and Japan) have a culture of a focus on quality, so they are very close in this trait.

The Dutch are IMO very pragmatic people that, while quality is important to them, are more willing to sacrifice it for other things that are of higher priority.

So it's not about a general sharing of culture but only about sharing the quality-focus aspect.

[Robin_Message]

I had a colleague who insisted on quality in every bit of our software and the results were similar perhaps: locally, each thing might take more time and more care, but the global result was everything working better and being done more easily. So perhaps focusing in quality and assuming efficiency will come from global effects is a good strategy?

(Reminds me also of The score takes care of itself business book)

[james_s_tayler]

It's almost 100% cultural I feel. At least Japanese people always attribute it to their culture and self concept of what Japanese do / how Japanese (and therefore themselves) behave.

If there are non-cultural factors I would think they contribute a fairly small amount.

But there's a light side and a dark side to the cultural factors. It has some seemingly unavoidable side effects.

Feels to me very much like a trade-off.