[afrojack123]

Not true. Panasonic is a Japanese battery manufacturer that Tesla is a customer of. Japan carmakers aren't going for batteries despite having local capabilities. Instead they want to go for natural gas based hydrogen fuel. South Korea also.

[kube-system]

I don't know enough about Japanese law to know either way, but measuring needs, capabilities, and/or national strategy by observing the things that companies are doing is often a bad yardstick.

At best, this is twice removed from the facts at hand. [future capabilities and limitations exist] > [they're interpreted by legislators who design regulations and subsidies] > [automakers build whatever makes them money]

If look at the US automotive market, you might conclude that automakers have found the best way to decrease emissions is by making cars larger. This clearly isn't the case, this is simply what the regulations have encouraged companies to do.

[afrojack123]

Large companies are politically connected. The car manufacturers represent a large amount of exports and are politically connected. The politicians and lawyers aren't making decisions on their own. The car companies bring their engineering and science expertise to the table when crafting national policy.

[kube-system]

Yes, and they do that with the interest of making money, not with the interest of ensuring national energy/resource security.

They're not building hydrogen vehicles out of some long-term concern about resource availability. Note how those same automakers don't sell those vehicles in the rest of the world, even though they're on the same planet with the same amount of cobalt.

Japanese automakers are building hydrogen vehicles because 1) they are being subsidized, and 2) they get a seat at the table to influence regulators.

[afrojack123]

Mirai has begun selling in California and its even more than the Model 3. It is definitely not subsidized. However, the price between model 3 and the Mirai make me wonder. I don't understand the science fully and I know most people don't know either except for the physicists. I don't trust Elon and batteries could be a short term thing.

[kube-system]

Ah, looks like it has -- last time I checked I thought you could only get one on lease. Honda's FCX Clarity is still limited production and lease-only.

But yes, the Mirai and the fueling stations are definitely subsidized, both in Japan and in California.

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/programs/hydrogen-fueling-in...

https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/eligible-vehicles

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/18/700877189/japan-is-betting-bi...

[afrojack123]

Yep. They give you $15,000 fueling credit for 3 years but this is definitely a forward deposit for building out infrastructure. I am not the most scientific person but I don't like Elon Musk's history and that he didn't address the science properly. Elon Musk bought Tesla and scrubbed the founder's name because it makes it better for storytelling purposes. When mentioned fuel cell vehicles, he called it Fool Cells and wrongly brought up a 2 step process. Theatrics and logically true but wrongly used. I am familiar with these techniques used by bullshitters.