[asa4akj]

comparing uber and etsy is dishonest at best.

The only freedom an uber contractor has is "when to work". All the pricing and trips are decided by uber, and they can't even reject properly. They are in fact an employees in everything but legal status.

In etsy, you choose your prices, what you sell, and even to whom you sell to, it's definitely a market place.

[deminature]

Drivers have been able to set their own prices in California for some time now https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/

[omgwtfbyobbq]

What Uber did likely isn't sufficient. Uber restricts the maximum drivers can set, only allows increases in 10% increments, does not allow passengers to see the rates of more than one driver at a time, does not let a passenger set their own rates, does not allow drivers to go below auto-pricing, and still sets surge pricing themselves instead of letting passengers and drivers set pricing when demand is high.

Starting Tuesday morning, drivers at the three test airports can either accept Uber’s original price for outgoing rides, or ask for up to five times more, in increments of 10%. After next week they will have the option to ask for less than Uber’s original price.

Essentially those drivers now are bidding against one another for riders. Uber passengers will see only the lowest proposed fare range. If that driver rejects their ride request, they could see a new, higher fare range, as Uber would then show the request to the next-cheapest driver.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Uber-tests-lett...

Uber likely wouldn't be in this position if they stayed out of pricing/visibility and let passengers/drivers set whatever rates they wanted to. Just provide a platform for people to get rides and stay out of pricing entirely.

[gamblor956]

"For some time now" meaning less than 1 month, or long after this particular point was raised in the trial that just concluded.

And importantly, it's not actually in effect in the entire state yet. It's still just limited to the Bay Area, with the rollout to the rest of CA happening over the rest of the summer.

[itake]

If this truly is an invalid business model (riders can't/refuse to pay driver's full salary + benefits), then a lot of people willing to work at these lower rates will be losing their jobs / extra income.

[throw_awy_1]

Just like minimum wage.

[santoshalper]

True, but to be fair, that is a huge freedom, and one many people want or need.

Yes, driving Uber is a shit job, but for many people it is far better or more compatible with their lives than waiting tables or working retail, which are the realistic alternatives for most Uber drivers.

[gamblor956]

People waiting tables or working retail make more than Uber drivers on an hourly basis...

[steffan]

Yet Uber was able to attract people who voluntarily chose to participate in their business model. There must have been something compelling about it.

The simplest explanation is that for whatever reason, those better-paying retail or food service jobs were not an option.

[ceejayoz]

> There must have been something compelling about it.

One of those compelling things is that it seems like a better deal. Uber relies on you not doing the expenses math on things like vehicle depreciation, car insurance, unpaid time spent waiting for fares, etc.

[baryphonic]

Would a system that allows the drivers to "set their own pay" and in which Uber dispatches drivers with the lowest rates follow the law better? This would clearly be a race to the bottom (the pay would probably be even lower than what Uber drivers get today). Is that a preferable outcome?

I also object to this characterization of consent.

> The only freedom an uber contractor has is "when to work".

How is this not complete freedom? Loads of contracts out there specify the rate that the contractor will be paid, and both parties are expected to uphold that specified pay. Are those contracts no longer valid? In some cases with written contracts, the pay is specified as a non-negotiable condition from the paying party, and the "only freedom" the contractor has is to take it or leave it. Is that a violation? If a contractor never actually gets hired under a contract for which she sets her own rates and all of the other "freedoms" supposedly necessary for forming a contract (in CA), is she being oppressed in some other way?

No one is holding a gun to Uber drivers' heads forcing them to drive. They seem to be doing it voluntarily (this seems the case for every one I've met). Insofar as this is their only option, this is not a problem of Uber's creation, but of the overall political economy. And that, after all, is GP's point.

[gamblor956]

The difference is that contractors can negotiate those other contracts to change the rate of pay. An Uber driver cannot negotiate how much they get paid by Uber. (Part A of the ABC test.)

In some cases with written contracts, the pay is specified as a non-negotiable condition from the paying party, and the "only freedom" the contractor has is to take it or leave it. Is that a violation?

No, because one of the other factors in being a contractor was having multiple (potential) contracting counterparties (aka clients). An Uber driver contracts with just Uber, not the riders. In contrast, a contractor would generally have more than one client if they were in the business of providing that type of service as a contractor. (Part C of the ABC test. Note that Part C requires a contractor to engage in the legal formalities of creating their own business, so it's not just enough to work for both Uber and Lyft.)

But note that for Uber and Lyft, what matters is not that they failed part A and C of the ABC test, since those are relatively trivial to structure around.

Uber and Lyft fail part B of the ABC test, which is that a worker cannot be engaged in a job that is the usual course of the employer's business. Uber and Lyft call themselves transportation companies, ergo, any worker that is providing a transportation service is automatically an employee under the ABC test. Indeed, drivers are the only workers at Uber/Lyft that would be treated as automatic employees; the programmers could be employees or contractors.