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by moreorless 2141 days ago
As an anecdote, I hear people call out the CPC in public places in China.
6 comments

I remember during Beijing Olympics, there were these "protest zones" that were created which theoretically should have allowed dissent in these areas. A pass based system was introduced to get access to these places. I remember people who applied for passes getting rounded up by the police.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2008/08/13/china-police-detain-woul...

In 1956, the CPC "encouraged citizens to express openly their opinions of the communist regime" and then "after this brief period of liberalization, ... those who were critical of the regime and its ideology ... were rounded up in waves by the hundred of thousands, publicly criticized, and condemned to prison camps for re-education through labor, or even execution."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign

In popular Western tellings of this piece of history, it's usually portrayed as a comic book evil conspiracy by the Chinese government. In actuality, it probably reflects an internal power struggle within the party at the time, where some politicians (among them Mao Zedong) were interested in a process of democratization, whereas others feared for their positions. The fact that a lot of the criticism that was made by the citizens was considerably more fundamental than even Mao had expected eventually eroded Mao's position to the point where he was forced to back down.

This obviously doesn't change the fact that the CPC at the time, like the CPC of today, is a dictatorial organization that should never be supported. But the quotes in your post very much play into the "evil conspiracy" angle, and I think it's important to tell history in a way that reflects the actual power dynamics instead of cloak-and-dagger tales.

>> In 1956, the CPC "encouraged citizens to express openly their opinions of the communist regime" and then "after this brief period of liberalization, ... those who were critical of the regime and its ideology ... were rounded up in waves by the hundred of thousands, publicly criticized, and condemned to prison camps for re-education through labor, or even execution."

>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign

> The fact that a lot of the criticism that was made by the citizens was considerably more fundamental than even Mao had expected eventually eroded Mao's position to the point where he was forced to back down.

IIRC, Mao expected the policy to bolster the regime and show how the people genuinely supported it. That didn't happen. Since the goal wasn't to actually let the people express alternative views, they cracked down hard.

I agree it probably wasn't "comic book evil conspiracy," but it's still a good illustration of how risky CCP offers of freedom of speech are.

another man's word: Law & Order
Hitler also sent word that he supports restoration of the monarchy...only to kill those that agreed with that
Would love to read more about this if you have any sources.
Here's an interesting site if you have an interest in monarchism.

http://madmonarchist.blogspot.com/2011/11/enemy-of-monarchy-...

my comment was based on a movie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exception based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kaiser%27s_Last_Kiss Of course any monarchy would've recognized the Nazis so maybe the monarchs would have been as figureheads only. Reading more, looks like the book might not be 100% accurate. For example, Himmler did not meet the exiled last Kaiser but Goring did.
In such an environment, anecdotes may be among the most accurate information one can get.

I've never really seen such personally. People occasionally petition the central government due to grievances, but those people are heavily monitored, strongly discouraged, and later suffer negative repercussions (I know one such individual personally).

There are occasionally protests regarding local issues: housing demolition, environmental problems. They are not allowed to persist. I've never seen these in person.

I used to very occasionally see graffiti critical of the government, but I don't think I've see such in 5+ years. I figure the omnipresence of the security cameras have discouraged this.

I once received a robocall from the Falun Gong critiquing the government. I also occasionally see Falun Gong messages stamped on paper currency.

That's about it. I'm curious about the specifics of the case(s) about which you've heard.

Censorship in China Allows Govt Criticism but Silences Collective Expression [pdf] (dash.harvard.edu)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20729614

I wonder if this is either very recent (since I haven't been there in over 6 months) or fairly old (before Xi took power). I could hear regular complaints about corruption, governance, and even government, but not the party itself (or particularly and most recently Xi). Granted I've mostly been in northern and central/western China rather than the south, but Guandong and Shenzhen didn't seem that different except for the Canton influence.

I have not (over 20 years) had an open political conversation about the party in China and I would never ask my friends there to entertain it even in the US. There is no point. Even in the US I would only discuss US politics, although they often seemed to be effectively related.

I will say that one of the formative descriptions of Chinese history was in the summer palace next to a statue of an emperor (Ming?) who had commited suicide upon being overthrown... he was by account terrible at ruling so I asked why there was a ;large statue. The answer was that by killing himself and not forcing the soldiers to fight and mandarins to destroy records he had maintained stability. This may be apocryphal, but the stories people tell about themselves are very illuminating.

I was in Shanghai in the winter, and I definitely heard some criticism of Xi in particular. I agree that people don't really like to talk about the party, but even that depends on context and setting.

There is definitely a cultural barrier there, around what "politics" even means and the role it should play. Most Chinese people are very jaded in general, and consider all politics, in China and abroad, to be nothing but an expression of entrenched power. As a result, democracy is often seen as an unachievable ideal that also doesn't exist in the west, particularly not in the USA.

In effect, this also means that Westerner's questions about Chinese politics can appear nonsensical or even naive to Chinese people. This is also why people are more likely to talk about corruption, as that is an evil that is considered possible to fight against.

As an anecdote, i have a Tajik friend from Xinjiang who's seen friends kidnapped by Chinese authorities and never heard from again for daring to criticise the govt.
Technically China does have free speech. The problem is that the rules don't really matter. If you say something that offends a someone with guanxi with the right people, you're screwed.

It's the same reason foreign businesses struggle so much in China. If you aren't friendly with the necessary bureaucrats and your Chinese competition is, you'll find yourself blockaded perpetually for the most bullshit reasons.

Why do parents go jump through hoops and are willing to break laws to get their kids into top colleges? People often say bribery is rampant in China. We have Super PACS and political donations and revolving doors.