Ask HN: How do you build up your first career close to age 40?

[zboox]

I have under 1 year total lifetime experience with full-time work, which was in 2010. That doesn't just include software engineering work (which is what I have done for the past several years)- that includes every type of job I've done since I started taking jobs while in high school.

I've went back and counted my jobs- at department stores, B2B clients, campus work etc. and I only found one year where I was actually a full-time employee of any kind.

In the meantime I fell into a holding pattern of freelance/temp work with little to show in building my network. Many failed attempts to get hired full-time as a SWE are a cause for concern.

Also, I am about 2 years away from reaching 40.

I'm not quite the same as a spoiled kid who didn't need to work for most of their life. I simply am a guy who has held lot of temporary jobs, but displays little "career intelligence".

What advice would you give to an adult that is a late bloomer in professional stability and growth and wants to build a career? How do people build a network from almost zero in a post-COVID world? I might want to glean experiences of class of 2020 students too, to get an idea of network building in difficult times, since I find myself to have more in common with students than the average 30-something professional.

[Hnrobert42]

My company is fully remote. When I interview people, I don’t know how old they are, nor do I care. I look at their job history as it relates to their ability to perform the job for which they are applying. If you were applying for an associate or junior developer position, your lack of experience wouldn’t really matter. I would worry that your bouncing around reflects that you can’t be counted on to stick it out for more than a year.

To change my mind, during the interview, when I ask, you would need to explain what is different about your approach now. Not just that you want to be different, but what you are doing/thinking differently. If you gave a decent answer and everything else lined up, I would take the chance.

So, my suggestion is look for small start ups. Their hiring practices aren’t as rigid.

[zboox]

Hi Hnrobert42, thanks for your advice but I am not certain about limiting my options to small startups. I already attract small startups to a high degree and for better or for worse, they never want to hire me as W2. So I don't get sign-in bonuses, nor a 401K nor health benefits.

What I don't know is what is so different about the approach to getting hired as full-time employee compared to a freelancer that makes it so difficult for me to pass. In what ways should one behave differently at a full-time job interview compared to a contractor's interview.

Right now I'm on YouTube looking for winning tech interviews in order to see how I should speak and things to say. It's the closest you could be to a fly on the wall eavesdropping on an interview. Because when it comes to social cues, I learn better by observing than by intuition.

[Hnrobert42]

Fair points. I don’t know if there are differences in interview responses that would get you placed more frequently as a W2 or 1099. Usually that distinction is already set by the time the company posts the job. So I would confirm early in the interview that the position is full-time and not contract.

It may help to explain to the interviewer why you want a full-time position, from their perspective. That is, emphasize that you want to build something lasting and meaningful. You work best within a team where you all support each other work together. You want to minimize time wasted on spin-up cycles. Practice a 60-second explanation along those lines, so that when they ask “Why are you looking for a full-time position,” your answer will be smooth and thoughtful.

My other bit of advice is about self-confidence. I have observed that self-confidence is completely unrelated to competence. That is, there are many confident folks with who are terrible at their jobs and lots of talented people with little self-confidence. So don’t get stuck thinking that you could feel confident if you just had xyz experience or skills. You can feel that confidence right now. So while you are youtubeing, consider studying how to improve your self-confidence.

I say all this not really knowing anything about you. I may be totally wrong. I don’t many an offense. I only want to help. Best of luck.

[michaelcao]

I am also live in Viet Nam. i am working for a US company in Viet Nam. I am a founder of a vietnam startup. I read your information in hacker news. Could we make friend? I always want to learn knowledge from US experts.

[Hnrobert42]

Oh cool. Send me an email at [e-mail], and I will respond with my real address.

[michaelcao]

I just sent an email to you.

[mcv]

You can build up a very fine career as a freelance software engineer. My career really took off the moment I quit my job and became a freelancer at age 37.

Of course as a freelancer, working on our network is probably more important than otherwise; you need to be able to find interesting projects, and you need recruiters and hiring managers to be able to find you. I think I've still neglected this aspect a bit too much; I mostly trust recruiters to be able to find my outdated CV on Linkedin, but another freelancer I know makes sure he connects on linkedin with hiring managers of interesting companies. It enables him to get hired more directly, without recruiters getting in the way.

Do polish your CV. Put the focus on the most interesting projects you worked on. Make sure you describe what you worked on, what the broader purpose of the project was, what (interesting) technologies you worked with, and what your responsibilities were.

If you did personal side projects, list them too. Especially open source projects. It's all software experience.

Don't bother listing projects that were both very short and not very interesting, but interesting short ones and boring long ones are still worth mentioning (but the interesting short ones more than the boring long ones: put the focus on the stuff you want to do).

Non-software jobs can still be worth mentioning if they gave you relevant insights or experience, like dealing with customers or other stakeholders, logistic or administrative processes, creative work, etc.

If you look at your work experience from the right perspective, you may find you know a lot more than you thought.

[zboox]

As stated before, I find freelancing to be a lonely experience. Not a lot of developers to talk shop to, and rarely do clients follow-up with additional work or referrals.

I finish work for clients as I get paid, and usually never hear from them again.

I've interviewed at larger companies trying to expand my career into being a senior among more developers but they seem to think I don't fit the bill, yet never tell me what I need to do to improve.

Lots of other small startups contacting me all the time trying to convince me to do a lateral move, but what's the point, I will just be the only in-house dev, stuck and stagnant again.

TBH I find freelance career maintenance to be laborious. It's just not right for me. I would rather move into a low maintenance software job rather than the high maintenance world of startups and freelance. It's so easy for me to lose my grip in freelance- I barely make enough money to stay above poverty level (I live in the US so I'm referring to US poverty).

At the very least I want to experience both full-time and freelance to an equal degree. Right now my experience is like 5% full-time and 95% freelance, so trying to shift my time spent on both closer to 50/50.

[mcv]

That depends entirely on how you freelance. I join teams. My current project, for a major Dutch bank, started with me developing the prototype, and later interviewing a bunch of people (internal and external) to join the team that I'm still part of.

At other projects, I was hired to add some external expertise to an existing team. But it's mostly long projects in teams.

But before I ended up in these sort of big projects, I went to a lot of local meetups to keep in touch with other freelancers. That can also be a great source of a network, although that never amounted to much for me.

> "Lots of other small startups contacting me all the time trying to convince me to do a lateral move, but what's the point, I will just be the only in-house dev, stuck and stagnant again."

It can be a great way to prove to the companies you actually want to get hired by, that you can work in a company as part of a team.

[ramblerman]

From the description it sounds more like you are contracting, not freelancing?

A contractor is typically on site, or sells his time (and presence), meaning he has one client at a time.

A freelancer to me works on projects, and will take on multiple clients at the same time.

[zboox]

A freelancer is usually an independent contractor, so they're a subset of contractors.

You get a certain kind of freedom with freelancing but it does get tiring to chase people down for your money.

[zboox]

Doesn't really have the "team" feel when the rest of your team is offshore. Large time zone differences make synchronous communication difficult.

[cm2012]

One issue that may be getting in the way of you getting full time work is that you come across as being defensive/testy in response to friendly comments here. Here's some examples below of comments that could have softer phrasing (like first acknowledging the commenters point, then refuting it, instead of jumping into refutation):

"Do I need to make that distinction explicit?"

"What good would a code bootcamp do for me which I can't already do self-taught?"

"Just because that is your preferred experience, you want me to follow it? "

[zboox]

It's simply good to ask questions to show your interest in how others reason about.

[trevett]

You did not follow the typical path and that's fine. Own it. As a hiring manager, I would want to talk to an engineer who had diverse experience and insight into a variety of businesses. Is there a particular engineering area you want to build a career around?

I'm not sure a bootcamp is necessary but I would suggest whatever intensive interview training you think you need to get into a good tech company. Working at a bigger one is a solid way to bootstrap a professional network.

[PopeDotNinja]

What I did is set myself apart by going deep on Ruby. I studied for a couple years. I learned it better than most people. Then I found a company that really needed Ruby expertise. I got my first coding gig a few weeks after my 40th birthday.

[sheepdog]

I'm 40-ish and have been self-employed for about 5 years now. I have no plans to go back to full-time employment. You should consider that route.

There are very few benefits to being a full-time employee that you can't obtain yourself. Plus, having a wide portfolio of freelance clients helps insulate you against business downturns and future age discrimination.

Granted, it's a lot of work to curate a good client list and network yourself. But it's actually the same amount of work as jockeying for promotions and good projects at a corporate job.

And there is some risk involved in working for yourself. But at a corporate job there is similar risk; you are always one bad quarter away from being laid off.

Working for yourself IS a career. Consider fortifying your position and staying the course.

[zboox]

I find freelancing to be a lonely experience. I don't get to talk shop with co-workers as well.

>I have no plans to go back to full-time employment. You should consider that route.

Just because that is your preferred experience, you want me to follow it? Okay but my personal goal is to be employed full-time and you seem more interested in making me more like you, and not like who I want to be.

If you want to help me on my goal to get employed full-time, I'm all ears. But I am not looking to be convinced to stay freelance.

[sheepdog]

My apologies. You have to be yourself, and there are some social benefits to going to the office. Assuming your freelance work counts as past experience, and that you are trying to stay in the same space, I'd offer these tips:

1. Tell prospective employers that you were very successfully self-employed, not unemployed. No one want to hire someone who is perceived as inexperienced, so you've got to make it clear that your freelance work was every bit as much "real work" as corporate projects.

2. Build a portfolio of freelance projects that are impressive. When talking about them, mention how you had to do "full stack" or "end to end" work. Make it clear that you deliver awesome stuff and work independently.

3. Sometimes getting a job is a "who you know" situation. Gently ask your freelance clients if they are hiring, even if it's temp to perm.

4. If you lack experience, try to get a "foot in the door" by taking a lower position. For example, if you can't get on the dev team, can you get hired as tier 2 support? It's not ideal, but you might be able to move to the dev team in 6-12 months if you are a good worker. Or you can use that as a stepladder to pivot to a competitor.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

[davidw3]

Do you have any advice for making that transition? I'm a SWE with about 3 years experience. I'm hoping to make this type of transition in a few more years. Also, are you in the US? Does paying for your own insurance significantly erode your earnings?

[sheepdog]

I'd recommend moonlighting to get a feel for it. It's a good way to test drive without the "sink or swim" pressure. You can get gigs from your network, partner agencies, or Upwork.com. (The pay sucks on Upwork, but it's good experience and you'll build your confidence.)

Another (more risky) approach would be to deliberately work at a 5 or 10 person company. This will give you a feel for how to "hunt for your own food" but still have a team backing you up. (I subcontracted at a few small agencies during year one, just to keep some cash flow going.)

I'm in the US, so healthcare insurance is a big concern. But corporations aren't the only ones who can buy health insurance. Depending on a lot of factors, it costs roughly $500-$1000 a month to ensure a family. Some chambers of commerce have a group plan that you can buy into.

On the surface, that sounds like a lot of money. But in reality, it's only $12k a year. If you are a primo engineer making $100k+ per year, save up over several years and you have 2-3 years of runway to pay for your insurance. The moonlighting will help with this as well.

Good luck!

[s1t5]

You have several years of software development experience. If that's true, you aren't really starting your career now, you're just looking for a more stable position. I think that the distinction is important especially in interviews because without it you might be underselling yourself.

[zboox]

Do I need to make that distinction explicit? Companies are usually more interested in hearing what the employee can do for them rather than what the employee wants out of their career.

Underselling myself is probably also due to my lack of career intelligence. I don't know how to take responsibility for a career. I don't know how to give it periodic maintenance. I'm always living in the now, looking for my next jobs under pressure. Then I become so focused on tasks at the current job that I don't see the bigger picture (especially since I am just a temp worker).

[s1t5]

> Do I need to make that distinction explicit?

Yes.

> Companies are usually more interested in hearing what the employee can do for them rather than what the employee wants out of their career.

That's true and is in line with what I'm suggesting.

My point is that you shouldn't position yourself as "I have no continuous experience, please hire me for my first real job". Instead it should be more like "I'm an experienced software developer, this is the kind of work that I've done and these are the skills that I have".

[mcv]

Hiring is a two-way street. Of course the company wants to know what you can do for them, but they also want to know what they can expect from you in the future, and that includes the direction you want to develop in. There's nothing wrong with wanting more stability.

Also, you may be passionate about things you don't have a lot of experience in yet. A company that's not sure whether you are right for them based on your experience, might reject you for having no passions or ambitions, or give you a chance when they think your passion and ambition fits the kind of things they do.

[trilinearnz]

My $0.02:

When I applied for my first fulltime job the company in question was offering both a contract and fulltime option. I was asked, probably in addition to my history of freelancing, why I was gunning for the fulltime option. I responded by saying that I appreciated the steadiness of work (with freelance you are often looking for the next opportunity), and to help contribute to the success of a particular organisation in the long term. They seemed satisfied by this response. I think they were coming from the point of view that you could make more money by freelancing / contracting, so were just curious as to why I wanted to "downgrade" (not their words, this is just my speculation).

Based on that experience (admittedly I was 23 at the time), you may find prospective employers more open to entertaining your application than you might think due to them having a different perception of your history.

I think given Covid you could make a pretty good case for wanting to shift to a more stable career path. I also wouldn't belittle your own experience thus far as not being a "career". There are many advantages of chopping and changing between different business contexts that you now have, that someone who only ever worked in 2-3 companies would not have.

You say you have no network. I would suggest reflecting a bit more on this, as I'm certain you would at least have some amicable contacts / temporary colleagues that you've made along the way, even if you wouldn't necessarily think of them as your "network" right now. Do you have a LinkedIn profile? If not, consider making one and connecting with some of the people you've worked with in the past.

Popping up a GitHub profile with a simple project that demonstrates what you think your skills are (e.g. perhaps it's a business web application that has a well-written set of unit tests, or applies a particular design pattern in a clear and logical way) could be a good compliment to your CV that employers can use to verify your expertise. If you find yourself relating more to the student crowd, then this is the sort of tack that graduates would take to prove their ability.

[austincheney]

Here are some random things that are guaranteed to work for landing a well paid IT job.

* get your CCNA and become a junior network engineer.

* Join the military. You can join the US military without living in the US or being a US citizen and achieve citizenship in 3 years instead of 5. If you have a 4 year university degree you can start life as a management intern as a 25A. If not you can be a 25B or if you are more ambitious and not afraid of failure a 17C or 25D.

* Learn JavaScript. When I say learn it I mean actually learn it as in writing original applications, walking the DOM, avoiding frameworks. Most people paid to write JavaScript never actually learn it and they need tremendous help from frameworks, abstractions, tools and other things that slow them down and makes for slow/shitty products. Employers generally realize the incompetence associated with this technology but they have products they need to ship. If you actually learn the technology with confidence companies will hire you just for the potential of solving problems other developers refuse to accept.

[Jugurtha]

Hi. Here's what you can do:

- Start a company and build product for enterprise. The amount you get paid as a company vs. as an individual is not even comparable.

- Learn to sell more, or hire someone who can, and then learn to sell. Someone who can ask for a price you would never ask without blushing, blinking, sweating. Most engineers I've seen have a problem with sales and you don't know what's valuable for clients. I was in meetings where the client ignored features we spent weeks on, and was amazed by a feature we implemented in a day. One colleague engineer who tagged along was just amazed: "From all the features, they loved that?". Sometimes the amount of engineering you spend on something and the value it has to someone are two independent variables.

- Get an attorney who'll draw your contracts and make sure your company doesn't get abused. Clauses to protect you. To make sure you get compensated for the opportunity cost of an exclusivity contract, and to make it constrained in space, time, and limited to some entities. Obviously never sign something before they read it. The contracts you're handed were probably written by people from a legal department, so it's good to run it through someone cut from the same cloth.

- Amicable relations. Always deliver. Build a reputation. Repeat customers are a thing. Recommendations are definitely a thing. This can be very profitable.

- Network. The energy it takes is considerable. To be able to positively pitch your services, build relations, follow up on enquiries, spread good vibes... Build relations, build trust... And sometimes, sometimes, you might have to do a solid to a relation in a large enterprise to get in, but when you get in, you get in. Again, this can be profitable.

- For hiring, surround yourself with people you can learn from, who can complement you. Your objective is to grow the company.

- After servicing many customers, you'll learn patterns. You can sell a product many times over.

I'm excited for you. All the best!

[adityarao310]

I think a code bootcamp will def help you

[zboox]

What good would a code bootcamp do for me which I can't already do self-taught?