[darkerside]

If you are in a similar boat, it's likely that when you consider an upcoming dreaded task, there is at least a small part of you that admits the possibility that you will not do the task. And because there is, and because your brain realizes it, it expends mental energy trying to convince you not to do it. Once you are actually doing the task, or it's done, or you realize that you must start doing it immediately, you suddenly find that while plenty of physical energy may be required, there is almost no mental energy required at all.

A trick I've learned is to lie to yourself. Say you're excited to do it, that you can't wait, and that you enjoy it. Your brain is easily convinced if you're willing to let it be.

Sometimes this is not the case, because your brain entertains the idea that it can stop doing the activity it doesn't want to do. Once you are able to convince your brain that is not an option, this mental energy is returned to you as well. i.e. Pain is mandatory, but suffering is optional.

[Scarblac]

Sometimes it isn't even a lie. When procrastinating I sometimes have to stop, remind myself that I _enjoy_ programming and figuring out the best way to solve some problem, _this is actually fun_.

And then my brain realizes that that's actually true, it's being silly by procrastinating, and I get to work.

It's strange that it's necessary, but it is.

[Kuinox]

Well, this, but the last step doesnt happen.

[stevewodil]

Remove everything that is distracting you (block YouTube, delete TikTok, etc) to the extent that the only choices you have are sit there and be bored or code.

For most people their brain craves stimulation. When we introduce highly stimulating and rewarding activities like YouTube, video games, and social media our brains procrastinate the harder work like programming because an easier reward is achieved by watching YouTube (ie. Less energy is expended to produce the same dopamine response).

The cycle of YouTube, social media, and video games (or anything you're addicted to) can easily ruin your life because you get caught in a loop of not wanting to work (procrastination), so you watch YouTube. That creates a habit of watching YouTube and the brain optimizes itself for that. Every time you sit at the computer you have the urge to watch Youtube. Then you start to feel bad about not making progress on your work. You turn to YouTube to make yourself feel better because it's the most efficient way of producing a reward in the brain. After each video is over, you don't want to start work because you've already optimized for watching YouTube (ie. momentum). So, you tell yourself lies like "one more video", or "after the next one I'll start work", or "well it's already 4pm so the day is basically over anyways I can't start working now".

If you're really having trouble and want a solution, block all of the distracting things in your life and get back to the basics. You don't need a "dopamine detox" or anything complicated. Simply block things (using a browser extension or DNS blacklist) you don't want to be doing and let yourself either be bored or do the work.

Suddenly you will find it's easy to get started on work, and actually pretty enjoyable to be productive. Use that momentum, and keep off of distracting websites/apps.

Do it for 5 days and see how far you can get.

[Kuinox]

Thanks for the tips, I start to try to apply them. Installed an extension 2 days ago to block websites (hn/reddit/twitter).

My brain is really an asshole and now i slack on discord servers :'(. I need to fix that now...

[stevewodil]

The brain is a hard thing to control, willpower is limited and the brain is highly efficient so when you block YouTube, it will find the next best thing.

Continuously audit yourself, like you already are (noticing that Discord is now an issue), and block more and more things that you find distracting. But also recognize that there will always be something that is more entertaining and you can always find a new website to waste time on. Block out as much as you can so that you're not fighting yourself and use a bit of self-control for the rest. Again, once your options are sit there and be bored or code that's when you see the greatest benefit.

Keep going, any progress that you make is good. Try to make a habit of opening your computer and starting with something productive even just for 10 minutes. Usually once you're engaged it's not that hard to keep going as you make progress. Getting started is the hard part and being bored helps you want to get started.

In general the less stimulation you have in your life the more interesting work will be. Depending on what resources you need for coding it might be easier to set up a whitelist for those couple of websites instead of a blacklist where you're trying to block everything distracting manually.

[tertius]

What are you avoiding, deep down?

[Kuinox]

Avoiding ? I wouldn't call this avoiding, it's lacking attention.

[ooobit2]

I've learned in life, both by doing and not doing, that effort is the only metric for success you can control.

As far as how you set your expectations, I'd like to propose an experiment: Draw a Punnett square, where X is each possible choice you can make with your time relevant to one variable (work/don't work) and Y is each possible result of the subject of your choice for X (meet deadline/don't meet deadline). You can imagine easily what a p.sq. of these four possible combined outcomes looks like. The point isn't that some of the intersections are impossible (ex. don't work/meet deadline). The point is to notice your ideal outcome (don't work/meet deadline) is: a) impossible, or if not impossible, then b) unlikely, given each intersection has the same general probability of occurrence. In a nutshell, stop expecting the impossible and the improbable. By investing yourself fully in just one of the possible outcomes represented in a p.sq., you will both fail to accept a reasonably good but unfavorable outcome and fail to persist when your ideal outcome appears unachievable.

[isanybodythere]

Hopefully saving someone some time: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square

[pvida]

You are and I thank you for that!

[hinkley]

Some psychologists seem to be okay with the idea of self-bribery to get through difficult tasks. I think culturally some of us are taught that this is a form of weakness, but it just results in things not being done.

I don't agree with a lot of Alcoholics Anonymous' philosophy, but the concept of 'white-knuckling' is quite a powerful metaphor for the trap we get into of trying to force ourselves through a difficult activity, and it speaks to a somewhat tortured value judgement around the relative value of doing a task at all versus doing it yourself. Like you'd rather have mold in your house than pay some guy to fix the shingles on your roof.

I've consumed as much if not more of my favorite ice cream in the last year, but it tends to be reserved for conscious choices: I'm going to make a difficult phone call or work on my billing, then go for ice cream, rather than whenever I just feel stressed. It is certainly not the only tool I have added to the toolbox, but it complements others and the end results have improved my outlook. And since motivation and mood are spirals (which I think you were trying to say?), that's a big deal.

[ep103]

I laughed while reading your response, because I was reading your response while eating a small amount of ice cream, specifically because I was about to go back to purging my day's worth of incoming emails, a task I genuinely hate doing : D

[knicholes]

I found myself doing the same, but I finally got so fed up with it I took action. I'm not sure about the content of your emails, but many of mine were from groups I was following that I had no interest in any longer, from code changes being made to repositories in which I no longer work, or just generic crap that I can't disable.

When I get an email I don't care about, I take action to make sure I don't get any more. I unsubscribe if it's a distribution list or some website that bought my email. I throw garbage I can't control into its own folder using Outlook rules. If it's a repo that I don't need, I unfollow it in github.

[dasil003]

Over the years as my email volume increased I did a lot of fine tuning to my email process (stars, labels, read/unread management, etc). Once it surpassed a certain threshold (maybe 250 per day), I just cut out email management entirely. I don't archive, I rarely label, I just go through the latest, respond to anything pressing, and if there's anything that needs further followup it goes to my OmniFocus inbox where I prioritize all my work.

Email is critical to my work, but gardening it is not worth the opportunity cost.

[powersnail]

> culturally some of us are taught that this is a form of weakness

It reminds me of in David Copperfield, where Mr. Murdstone asked his wife to be "firm" all the time.

I think the fact that qualities that are classified as weak or strong, is ultimately a type of bullying. Sometimes, it's a person bullying another. Sometimes, it's the culture bullying individuals, giving extra punishment to people already in distress.

Action by self-bribery is better than strong idleness, and there ought not to be no shame in self-bribery if that helps people to live a better life.

[darkerside]

My personal preference is to start with that, but quickly transition off the bribe. It was merely a crutch, albeit a helpful crutch, to get me started. But once I've proved I can do it without suffering, I know that I don't need those training wheels anymore, and in fact, in the future, they will hold me back, a meaningless ritual before the known work to be done.

Instead, find the next impossible task, and apply ice cream there.

[WalterBright]

> a form of their weakness

Princess Aura: Look! Water is leaking from her eyes.

The Emperor Ming: It's what they call tears, it's a sign of their weakness.

[agumonkey]

Instead of lying I'd use the make it fun. Find any reason to make that task enjoyable, flip it around, organize it differently.

At work (temporary gig):

- manual labour == free workout. Whenever I have to crouch for a file.. I do it in a slow and perfect squat. I grab the file and stay down to strecth, then I go up swift .. I'm happy to have that file because I gained something. Other task like archive defragmenting I tried various ways to find the most agreeable one, then I go full speed.

- mundane tasks (print copy, input):

I make a chase waste game out of it (what programmers do). I organize the thing to be as lean and fast as possible and turn a 100+ repetitions into a smooth flow .. like a choreography.

I time most things to make it a game. Coworkers are shocked (whatever their reasons) but I produce twice in half the time and zero rants coming from my cubicle.

For tasks that I really don't like to do.. I gained a mental compartment to remember not to ever trigger that task again. I do it as a debt to my mistake and get done with it.

[hinkley]

You can't rationalize or intellectualize everything. Trying just makes it harder later on when the things you cannot bargain with start piling up, despite all of your engineering attempts to prevent them. Essentially the author is asserting that thinking harder isn't going to fix some classes of problem, no matter how hard you think.

Fundamentally, there's a trap. It's a short trip from "I can avoid this if I'm good enough" to "I didn't avoid this, so I'm not good enough (bad)." That's toxic dialog. If this is the way you think about anyone, including yourself, you're not being a good friend, and there will be consequences.

And I realize the irony in this statement, but if you like to out-clever problems, you should think about whether you are failing to maintain a diversity of rich, long-term relationships with people. If so, this is probably not a coincidence.

[agumonkey]

That's what I tried to say in my last sentence. For way too absurd things, if you're obliged that time, do it, and the next time simply refuse and go elsewhere.

[rabidrat]

Some miserable things you have to do and can't get around it in the future. e.g. taxes.

[javier10e6]

Your comment reminded Principal Skinner in The Simpsons telling Bart to make a game of sharpening a stack of pencils: "Count the number of pencils you sharpened in one hour and try to beat your record"

[agumonkey]

I can't tell you how much better I feel doing this rather than behaving like other people in the workplace. Every hour is a drag to them, they're apathetic, ranting all day, talking to colleagues they don't even like. Tell me which one is better if you made an obligation of sharpening pencils. Also anything you do fast and clean becomes a skill. Most of life is a chore quick, cleaning, maintaining.. the faster you can do something perfectly the more time for good stuff.

[krustyburger]

Like all great advice, he was willing to follow it himself:

“I made a game of it. Seeing how many times I could bounce the ball in a day, then trying to break that record.”

[taneq]

> For tasks that I really don't like to do.. I gained a mental compartment to remember not to ever trigger that task again. I do it as a debt to my mistake and get done with it.

I like it. Here's to not ever making the mistake of doing my taxes again! raises glass

[tmatthe]

Yes I do this too! It's amazing what mindset can do.

[agumonkey]

We could talk about the social version of this. In my job nobody really works, it's an adversarial environment where everybody is hurting so wants to help nobody. A colleague and I did a thing together, the flow of shared tasks when done in friendly spirit helps immensely. Passing stuff between each others. Things happening while you're doing something else. Joining back together.. This should be mandatory in work and what leaders should be doing, ensuring people work in synergy.

[ajkdhcb2]

I think this is all abysmal, dangerous advice. The author says to 'become a robot' and you're saying to 'lie to yourself'. It's all very anti-Zen. I think Alan Watts would say it leads to double-binds and discordant psychological feedback loops that will cause you suffering.

Your brain isn't a separate part of you. And you should simply be mindful and fully aware of life, do what you want and enjoy doing, when you feel like doing it.

No wonder there is such an issue with anxiety and depression when culture seems intent on mind-games that trick people into spending life doing things that they don't really want to do.

[lightveil]

My problem with this is the fact that, as it turns out, what I enjoy doing is browsing Reddit/Youtube/Netflix etc. to the exclusion of everything else.

The internet has provided me with sufficient distractions-and they are immediately enjoyable enough-that longterm enjoyment/skill-building just doesn't provide me the sense of 'I want to do this' that other shortterm, immediately rewarding activities do.

[volkk]

you know, i'm sort of in the same boat except i realize its more of an addiction than an actual joy that leaves me fulfilled. i hate scrolling through reddit mindlessly and yet i always get pulled back into it. and i bounce between here and reddit for like 20 minutes until i snap out of it. short term im feeling satisfied, but deep within i feel like shit.

the best feeling i get is when i pick up a book or watch a documentary or go and enjoy the weather outside. it truly boosts my mood and makes me feel like a human

[crdrost]

There are various religious perspectives on this effect. My Buddhist teachers from back when I was a Buddhist would likely say that the latter—books, documentaries, and uitwaaien “bathing in the outdoor energy”—are somewhat “closer” to true lasting happiness than just clips and news articles, but still have a “mark of impermanence” and the enjoyment you get from them is still fleeting. Better, but not best.

I have heard a Hindu man I used to go to grad school with describing that, in his view, the point of his Hindu faith is to live a “satisfied” life, and that the book/documentary/uitwaaien stuff is objectively more satisfying. I don’t know to what extent his take is general and what I do know is that “Hinduism” is kind of just one blanket term that tries to wrap together dozens or more religious practices that do not have very much to do with each other, so it is likely that this is just one person’s take?

I am still trying to work out the authoritative Christian message here. (Christianity similarly lacks a central human authority and has a million denominations with different beliefs.) Several parts of the story are well-stated by some top-notch theologians, so I can say that a lot of this chaos is a result of having the wrong view of the purpose of life. The Reddit/YouTube thing chases short term happiness chemicals in your brain, whereas the book/documentary/uitwaaien paths lead potentially to developing your relationship with God, which is held to be the top thing. Crucially I have seen some really substantial arguments that say that in Christianity, this drive to produce something memorable—to be productive and ‘change the world,’ say—are a mistake; that this redirection of focus from status to relationship also means that Christianity does not value that sort of immortalization-in-history as it would be another status rather than a relationship. It’s the mindset of a developer who hears an intern say “hey I’m sorry to bug you but I have this question” and they stop coding and say “there is literally nothing more important that I could be doing right now than helping you with your question.” But I feel like while I understand some of these things I just have more questions than I have answers? Like I am not sure how this would fit with a Kantian categorical imperative; would it potentially mean that we all stop working and have genuine conversations with each other instead? Like part of the Protestant reformation was the rediscovery of work-as-value, as the Shakers said, “hands to work—hearts to God”... it is kind of an open question in my head how all of that balances.

[qlk1123]

I found it interesting that you are saying that HN and reddit are comparable things. I recently turned off both my FB and Twitter account (never been a user of reddit or I would have done the same thing to it), but still enjoy the time here and probably will keep browsing interesting news/opinions here.

English is not native to me. Even though I can read and write English article, the speed is just slow. To me, the short-term entertaining part of HN almost doesn't exist. I always have to be dedicated to some interesting but hard article to understand it in some degree.

[volkk]

i only compare the two because sitting around for hours on HN is still (in my eyes) mostly a time waster. the articles are still hit or miss, but youre definitely right, its not as mindless as reddit

[pvida]

I am the same; what helps me is being very cognizant of how I feel after over-indulging in Reddit or HN and how I feel after some exercise/time spent outside/watching a good documentary.

Some journaling and/or a quick meditation in the morning help me keep in mind these things - and consequently more grounded.

[kilroy_jones]

Have you tried questioning this? Do you really enjoy those things to the exclusion of other activities? I've found that while I think I enjoy them, they leave me feeling unsatisfied when I've stopped. Yet the things I enjoy which take more effort provide a higher quality enjoyment that persists after its done.

[eebynight]

You say this as if you have complete control over your thoughts and the content of your sub conscious mind, which you don’t...

Half the battle of accomplishing anything in life is priming your subconscious mind with the right line of thinking for the task at hand. If you reframe it that way this is fantastic advice.

Edit: I might also add your subconscious mind could very well be considered a separate entity considering it exists out of the full range of your conscious brains influence.

[ajkdhcb2]

It doesn't make any sense to 'control your own thoughts'. It's weird how people seem to picture their 'real self' as some disparate nonphysical entity in their body pulling levers, in this case even separate from the brain and thoughts

[alex_anglin]

You may wish to look in to Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, as it can achieve what you claim makes no sense.

[FeepingCreature]

When people picture a disparate nonphysical entity, it's usually a map-territory effect. Ie. in this case their model of themselves.

[rzzzt]

(It also might be partially residing in the gut.)

[dx87]

Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to spend their life doing what they enjoy, whenever they want. I'd bet that avoiding adversity at all costs is a bigger contributor to anxiety and depression because unless you live an incredibly privileged life, you'll eventually have to deal with things you don't want to.

[ajkdhcb2]

If an action is going to minimise anxiety and depression in the long run, then it's what you want to do, so no mind-games and lying to yourself should be required.

[Jeriko]

It is all mind games. I feel like you are leaning on a negative association to the phrase rather than making an argument. If you say "I don't feel like I want to do a thing, but doing that thing will minimise anxiety and depression in the long run, therefore I do want to do the thing" that is definitely a mind game. It is also a good way to be happier and more satisfied in life.

[ghostbrainalpha]

So you do what is in your long term best interest at all times?

I live in Las Vegas and it feels like my entire city was built on the backs of people who are unable to think in accordance with their long term plans.

[charlieflowers]

Albert Ellis wrote some interesting stuff about this. He called it "long term hedonism." https://albertellis.org/yolo/

[closeparen]

And yet many people find them necessary for e.g. exercise.

[darkerside]

If they are what's required to improve, then do them. Recognize when you no longer need the lies and move on.

[jariel]

": And you should simply be mindful and fully aware of life, do what you want and enjoy doing, when you feel like doing it."

It's not 'lying' to yourself, it's the higher part directing the lower part to do its job.

I think that we would waste away pretty quickly into nothing if we just 'did what we wanted'.

Even creative efforts take considerable amount of focus and discipline. Nothing is really just 'all fun'.

It takes a considerable amount of social training to hold our civility together.

Our complex socialisation is the only thing that separates us from being animals.

Even primates don't just 'do whatever' - even they have social rules.

Our 'higher selves' are the parts of us moving us forward, we can put our 'lower instincts' on cruise control from time to time (and that's probably healthy) but no question the 'thinker' has to be in charge in the end.

[Eugeleo]

That's an interesting viewpoint, and I'd love to be able to "do what you want and enjoy doing, when you feel like doing it" rather than use biological tricks to push myself to do something. Could you maybe elaborate a bit more on how could one achieve this goal?

There's lot of "hurdles" to "just being" nowadays. Even if you don't apply elaborated psychological methods on you everyday life, a big portion of your environment does do it — Facebook, YouTube, Reddit, ..., they all try to hack into your brain and suck you in. How do you prevent falling for these things without employing a bit of brain-hackery yourself?

Also, even if you manage to not succumb to the calls of Facebook et. al., a big portion of worthwhile, fulfilling and healthy things require you to be uncomfortable in the short term (e.g. exercise) in order to reap the benefits in the long run. How can you start doing these things without any rationalisation? (i.e. without trying to persuade the brain: Yeah, I know we'll be sweating, but it's worth it, trust me — you'll thank me in 20 years!)

[darkerside]

When I say to lie, I'm a bit tongue in cheek. I don't really consider it a lie anymore. It's simply a acknowledgment that this task will not be painful the way that I think. It's much more Zen than my initial post made it sound, but I hoped that would help translate to people who are getting started with self discipline.

[nuclearnice1]

Your comment rang very true to me. Thank you for posting it.

What would you recommend to read more about the Alan Watts topics you reference?

[dualogy]

Practically anything he wrote or lectured sooner or later zeroes in on this very topic.

The rather-neat core notion is that if you try to use your brain to fool your brain, "improve" your brain, plead with your brain, or "understand the brain", you're chasing ghosts, shouting at the wind, snake chasing its tail, tooth biting itself, etc. There's something to that.. if only as an occasional sane reminder to ease up on oneself because however much you listen to or serve the "lazy / procrastinating" or the "virtuous / ambitious" or any other fragments of the mysterious inside machinery, whichever side "you" serve is never satisfied, infinitely greedy and keeps demanding more..

[big_paps]

I dont think so. These monologs which hinder you from doing stuff by arguing with yourself are highly egoistic. So are the voices which try to convince the other voices ... The best thing is to just recognize them as narcistic white noise.

[sillysaurusx]

Another mental trick is to repeat to yourself "I'm an interesting person and people like me."

It's usually true. Lots of social anxiety evaporates. And sure, sometimes you put yourself in an embarrassing position because of it. But the benefits are worth it.

[adamsea]

Amen. Fake it til you make it. Key life skill.

[mortenjorck]

> A trick I've learned is to lie to yourself. Say you're excited to do it, that you can't wait, and that you enjoy it. Your brain is easily convinced if you're willing to let it be.

The technique I finally learned was to attempt to cultivate an enjoyment of the task I didn’t want to do. But I wonder if what you’re suggesting isn't really just a different way of looking at the same thing.

You might be “lying to yourself” telling yourself that you’re excited to do something, but the brain will start synthesizing that into what it might indeed find enjoyable about the task. I found I could easily get myself to fold laundry by focusing on the satisfaction of a folded shirt - it sounds silly, but I somehow hooked that process up to the right dopamine trigger, and now I rarely procrastinate this particular chore.

The process was similar for exercise. Whether it was “I’m going to tell myself I’ll enjoy this” or “I’m going to find something I enjoy about this” is perhaps not as clear-cut as I originally imagined, but either way, my epiphany was this: I will always find a way to avoid a task I don’t want to do, while I will always find a way to do something I’ve learned to enjoy.

[quotemstr]

> The technique I finally learned was to attempt to cultivate an enjoyment of the task I didn’t want to do

There's a fantastic idiom in English to express this idea: "to make virtue out of necessity".

[big_paps]

or : embrace the suck

[darkerside]

100%. Posting my other post,

> When I say to lie, I'm a bit tongue in cheek. I don't really consider it a lie anymore. It's simply a acknowledgment that this task will not be painful the way that I think. It's much more Zen than my initial post made it sound, but I hoped that would help translate to people who are getting started with self discipline.

[jonathanliu]

Vonnegut had a great quote along the lines of "we become who we pretend to be".

[psb]

I think this was pretty much the topic of one of his books

[Jtsummers]

Mother Night: "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."

[jonathanliu]

Heh I didn't know that. I heard/read the quote from Sivers.

[ak39]

"Fake it till you make it" meme?

[Jtsummers]

It was used in a similar, but twisted, sense in the book.

In the book, Mother Night, the character is working for the US (and the Allies) but under the cover of working for the Nazis. So it's a bit of a twist on "fake it til you make it". In the latter, you pretend to be what you want to be. In the book he's pretending to be what he doesn't want to be, but the consequence is that post-war he's perceived to have been a Nazi (or at least a collaborator).

[darkerside]

And arguably, was.

[mandliya]

>> A trick I've learned is to lie to yourself. Say you're excited to do it, that you can't wait, and that you enjoy it. Your brain is easily convinced if you're willing to let it be.

I think this is what most of hypnosis or meditation techniques do. They try to bring mind in a more suggestive state and then suggests that you like(or hate) the good(or bad) activity.

I have a friend who was a 6 cigarettes a day guy actually quit smoking after few sessions of hypnotherapy. He said his hypnotherapist suggested in sessions that you hate the smell of the smoke, and he started hating it. I had hard time believing it and I remember researching about it.

[FiberBundle]

I never understand this line of reasoning. What do you think is it that comes up with a thought like 'be excited about this task'. When you say that your brain is easily convinced by this you imply that there exists something besides your brain that comes up with thoughts, which makes absolutely no sense at all. It's more likely that your brain just decides a priori to do the task and then comes up with the thought that justifies doing the task.

[tmatthe]

Exactly. If you don't give your brain an option, you can't find a way to not do it.

I agree with your point on lying. I have tried it before but it takes a lot of mental effort to trick my brain and even then, it's a precarious situation where one loose thought can bring it all tumbling down.

[hinkley]

Part of discipline is not allowing 'in the moment' you to disagree with 'careful planning' you.

I know one or two people who have a lot of chaos in their lives who cannot do this. One in particular gets positively defensive if you ask in the car what you plan to accomplish by going into this store.

You can hardly call it 'buying extra things' if you refuse to articulate what the expected set of things was in the first place. She spends so much time de-cluttering and often doesn't have money for group activities despite being in essentially the same income bracket. Ten seconds making a plan doesn't have to turn into a whole avoidant 'ruining the experience' vibe of the trip. Also, no store is designed to make you enjoy it. It's merely designed for long- versus short-term ROI, and certain kinds of enjoyment can benefit one or the other. Enjoying a trip to the mall is expensive as hell.