[ajkdhcb2]

I think this is all abysmal, dangerous advice. The author says to 'become a robot' and you're saying to 'lie to yourself'. It's all very anti-Zen. I think Alan Watts would say it leads to double-binds and discordant psychological feedback loops that will cause you suffering.

Your brain isn't a separate part of you. And you should simply be mindful and fully aware of life, do what you want and enjoy doing, when you feel like doing it.

No wonder there is such an issue with anxiety and depression when culture seems intent on mind-games that trick people into spending life doing things that they don't really want to do.

[lightveil]

My problem with this is the fact that, as it turns out, what I enjoy doing is browsing Reddit/Youtube/Netflix etc. to the exclusion of everything else.

The internet has provided me with sufficient distractions-and they are immediately enjoyable enough-that longterm enjoyment/skill-building just doesn't provide me the sense of 'I want to do this' that other shortterm, immediately rewarding activities do.

[volkk]

you know, i'm sort of in the same boat except i realize its more of an addiction than an actual joy that leaves me fulfilled. i hate scrolling through reddit mindlessly and yet i always get pulled back into it. and i bounce between here and reddit for like 20 minutes until i snap out of it. short term im feeling satisfied, but deep within i feel like shit.

the best feeling i get is when i pick up a book or watch a documentary or go and enjoy the weather outside. it truly boosts my mood and makes me feel like a human

[crdrost]

There are various religious perspectives on this effect. My Buddhist teachers from back when I was a Buddhist would likely say that the latter—books, documentaries, and uitwaaien “bathing in the outdoor energy”—are somewhat “closer” to true lasting happiness than just clips and news articles, but still have a “mark of impermanence” and the enjoyment you get from them is still fleeting. Better, but not best.

I have heard a Hindu man I used to go to grad school with describing that, in his view, the point of his Hindu faith is to live a “satisfied” life, and that the book/documentary/uitwaaien stuff is objectively more satisfying. I don’t know to what extent his take is general and what I do know is that “Hinduism” is kind of just one blanket term that tries to wrap together dozens or more religious practices that do not have very much to do with each other, so it is likely that this is just one person’s take?

I am still trying to work out the authoritative Christian message here. (Christianity similarly lacks a central human authority and has a million denominations with different beliefs.) Several parts of the story are well-stated by some top-notch theologians, so I can say that a lot of this chaos is a result of having the wrong view of the purpose of life. The Reddit/YouTube thing chases short term happiness chemicals in your brain, whereas the book/documentary/uitwaaien paths lead potentially to developing your relationship with God, which is held to be the top thing. Crucially I have seen some really substantial arguments that say that in Christianity, this drive to produce something memorable—to be productive and ‘change the world,’ say—are a mistake; that this redirection of focus from status to relationship also means that Christianity does not value that sort of immortalization-in-history as it would be another status rather than a relationship. It’s the mindset of a developer who hears an intern say “hey I’m sorry to bug you but I have this question” and they stop coding and say “there is literally nothing more important that I could be doing right now than helping you with your question.” But I feel like while I understand some of these things I just have more questions than I have answers? Like I am not sure how this would fit with a Kantian categorical imperative; would it potentially mean that we all stop working and have genuine conversations with each other instead? Like part of the Protestant reformation was the rediscovery of work-as-value, as the Shakers said, “hands to work—hearts to God”... it is kind of an open question in my head how all of that balances.

[qlk1123]

I found it interesting that you are saying that HN and reddit are comparable things. I recently turned off both my FB and Twitter account (never been a user of reddit or I would have done the same thing to it), but still enjoy the time here and probably will keep browsing interesting news/opinions here.

English is not native to me. Even though I can read and write English article, the speed is just slow. To me, the short-term entertaining part of HN almost doesn't exist. I always have to be dedicated to some interesting but hard article to understand it in some degree.

[volkk]

i only compare the two because sitting around for hours on HN is still (in my eyes) mostly a time waster. the articles are still hit or miss, but youre definitely right, its not as mindless as reddit

[pvida]

I am the same; what helps me is being very cognizant of how I feel after over-indulging in Reddit or HN and how I feel after some exercise/time spent outside/watching a good documentary.

Some journaling and/or a quick meditation in the morning help me keep in mind these things - and consequently more grounded.

[kilroy_jones]

Have you tried questioning this? Do you really enjoy those things to the exclusion of other activities? I've found that while I think I enjoy them, they leave me feeling unsatisfied when I've stopped. Yet the things I enjoy which take more effort provide a higher quality enjoyment that persists after its done.

[eebynight]

You say this as if you have complete control over your thoughts and the content of your sub conscious mind, which you don’t...

Half the battle of accomplishing anything in life is priming your subconscious mind with the right line of thinking for the task at hand. If you reframe it that way this is fantastic advice.

Edit: I might also add your subconscious mind could very well be considered a separate entity considering it exists out of the full range of your conscious brains influence.

[ajkdhcb2]

It doesn't make any sense to 'control your own thoughts'. It's weird how people seem to picture their 'real self' as some disparate nonphysical entity in their body pulling levers, in this case even separate from the brain and thoughts

[alex_anglin]

You may wish to look in to Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, as it can achieve what you claim makes no sense.

[FeepingCreature]

When people picture a disparate nonphysical entity, it's usually a map-territory effect. Ie. in this case their model of themselves.

[rzzzt]

(It also might be partially residing in the gut.)

[dx87]

Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to spend their life doing what they enjoy, whenever they want. I'd bet that avoiding adversity at all costs is a bigger contributor to anxiety and depression because unless you live an incredibly privileged life, you'll eventually have to deal with things you don't want to.

[ajkdhcb2]

If an action is going to minimise anxiety and depression in the long run, then it's what you want to do, so no mind-games and lying to yourself should be required.

[Jeriko]

It is all mind games. I feel like you are leaning on a negative association to the phrase rather than making an argument. If you say "I don't feel like I want to do a thing, but doing that thing will minimise anxiety and depression in the long run, therefore I do want to do the thing" that is definitely a mind game. It is also a good way to be happier and more satisfied in life.

[ghostbrainalpha]

So you do what is in your long term best interest at all times?

I live in Las Vegas and it feels like my entire city was built on the backs of people who are unable to think in accordance with their long term plans.

[charlieflowers]

Albert Ellis wrote some interesting stuff about this. He called it "long term hedonism." https://albertellis.org/yolo/

[closeparen]

And yet many people find them necessary for e.g. exercise.

[darkerside]

If they are what's required to improve, then do them. Recognize when you no longer need the lies and move on.

[jariel]

": And you should simply be mindful and fully aware of life, do what you want and enjoy doing, when you feel like doing it."

It's not 'lying' to yourself, it's the higher part directing the lower part to do its job.

I think that we would waste away pretty quickly into nothing if we just 'did what we wanted'.

Even creative efforts take considerable amount of focus and discipline. Nothing is really just 'all fun'.

It takes a considerable amount of social training to hold our civility together.

Our complex socialisation is the only thing that separates us from being animals.

Even primates don't just 'do whatever' - even they have social rules.

Our 'higher selves' are the parts of us moving us forward, we can put our 'lower instincts' on cruise control from time to time (and that's probably healthy) but no question the 'thinker' has to be in charge in the end.

[Eugeleo]

That's an interesting viewpoint, and I'd love to be able to "do what you want and enjoy doing, when you feel like doing it" rather than use biological tricks to push myself to do something. Could you maybe elaborate a bit more on how could one achieve this goal?

There's lot of "hurdles" to "just being" nowadays. Even if you don't apply elaborated psychological methods on you everyday life, a big portion of your environment does do it — Facebook, YouTube, Reddit, ..., they all try to hack into your brain and suck you in. How do you prevent falling for these things without employing a bit of brain-hackery yourself?

Also, even if you manage to not succumb to the calls of Facebook et. al., a big portion of worthwhile, fulfilling and healthy things require you to be uncomfortable in the short term (e.g. exercise) in order to reap the benefits in the long run. How can you start doing these things without any rationalisation? (i.e. without trying to persuade the brain: Yeah, I know we'll be sweating, but it's worth it, trust me — you'll thank me in 20 years!)

[darkerside]

When I say to lie, I'm a bit tongue in cheek. I don't really consider it a lie anymore. It's simply a acknowledgment that this task will not be painful the way that I think. It's much more Zen than my initial post made it sound, but I hoped that would help translate to people who are getting started with self discipline.

[nuclearnice1]

Your comment rang very true to me. Thank you for posting it.

What would you recommend to read more about the Alan Watts topics you reference?

[dualogy]

Practically anything he wrote or lectured sooner or later zeroes in on this very topic.

The rather-neat core notion is that if you try to use your brain to fool your brain, "improve" your brain, plead with your brain, or "understand the brain", you're chasing ghosts, shouting at the wind, snake chasing its tail, tooth biting itself, etc. There's something to that.. if only as an occasional sane reminder to ease up on oneself because however much you listen to or serve the "lazy / procrastinating" or the "virtuous / ambitious" or any other fragments of the mysterious inside machinery, whichever side "you" serve is never satisfied, infinitely greedy and keeps demanding more..

[big_paps]

I dont think so. These monologs which hinder you from doing stuff by arguing with yourself are highly egoistic. So are the voices which try to convince the other voices ... The best thing is to just recognize them as narcistic white noise.