Ask HN: Getting depressed about money. How do I make a meaningful amount “fast”?

[mcdoug]

I am a software developer and like the company I work for. I am smart and capable but have few connections. I have a family and several people rely on my relatively high income so I can't drop everything and do a startup. I live in a place where cost of living is obscene and I have no option to move due to family. I am (finally) debt free, but projecting the rest of my life, I will be able to retire at 72-75. I want to get our early.

Every day I watch people get stupid rich. I know the startup route and have done that a couple of times, though the products didn't take to their markets. I've tried stock trading, crypto trading, investment, small businesses, various passive income schemes, etc. None of this seems to return any decent investment. My portfolio can give me a solid 6-8% a year return, but unless I already have a couple of million to gamble it will still mean a slow and steady investment over decades which still lands me at a ridiculously old age before it's enough.

Every day places like Softbank are giving away obscene amounts of money to mundane or straight up bad ideas. Banks and the government are moving unfathomable amounts of cash around, a bunch of which ends up disappearing to corruption. Bezos just made $13b in a single day during one of the worst economies of recent history. There is plenty of wealth out there to be had, but how to get a slice of it?

I am tired and losing hope. Even though I'm better off than most I am still struggling to support everyone who depends on me. I want to get rich and I no longer care about how (as long as it isn't illegal, completely unethical, and does not endanger anyone's life or health). I am not afraid of working hard and when I pick up a project I work on it obsessively until it's done and done right, but it feels like I am panning for pennies in a puddle. What is the best way to get a large slice of a large pie without abandoning everyone who is dear to me for several years?

[rbflx]

I can't really help you, but I just wanted to say that I've also felt the same way for a few months now. I'm not really in the same situation, but just seeing people make these outrageous amounts of money has been pretty depressing. What really gets me, apart from people like Bezos (like you've mentioned), is that there are literally children making multiples of a doctor's salary by peddling products to even younger children on social media. I guess it's always been similar, considering that child stars have existed for a long time, but there's just something so disheartening thinking about those people making these sums, while others work jobs that are central to our communities and earn a fraction of that.

At this point, I'm at the stage where I'm just trying to start as many projects as possible in my free time and just see what sticks, because frankly, I now believe that people's success is entirely driven by being in the right market at the right time, so you might as well maximize your chances.

[giantg2]

I agree, but instead of creating projects I want to buy land and have a small farm.

[mcdoug]

At least I'm not the only one :)

[jituc]

Count me in :)

[nknealk]

A few thoughts.

The people you see getting insanely rich often have decades of context (and a lot of luck) behind whatever made them insanely rich. I encourage you to not look at just the event that makes someone wealthy but look at the story that got them to that event. The acquired podcast does a great job of this when they cover company and founder history.

Nobody gets insanely wealthy selling their labor. Equity is what creates the massive payoffs.

Are there things you can do where you could own 100% equity? For example, are you an expert in systems administration? Can you write a book or Udemy course on it? Maybe it only makes you 1 grand in revenue but you may learn a lot about sales and marketing and promotion and other important business skills in the process. Those softer skills are just as important as engineering ability and there’s no better way to learn them than jumping into the deep end

[mcdoug]

I 100% agree with you on all of that. I know that it takes both luck and building up to having that luck and the ability to take advantage of it to land something like Amazon or Instagram. I am not aiming to create a unicorn startup. I could probably write a few books on various subjects and see what sticks. Worst case, I get my writing bug exercised. Thank you.

[Zoo3y]

The error here is comparing an upper middle class life of a software developer to that of banks and tech billionaires. You mentioned you have relatively high income, so aren't you and your family's needs met? Everyone wants to retire early, everyone would like a nice sum of cash fast. Perhaps it is worth exploring not increasing income, but decreasing expenditures and living more simply.

EDIT: like others have said here, money is a side effect of a passion. It is not an end in itself, unless you take up business and finance careers.

[mcdoug]

I am not exactly comparing myself to tech billionaires, but more tech millionaires. Bezos was mentioned just because of the absurdity of his wealth, but I don't want to be that rich. More like, I wouldn't mind finding a way to part Bezos and about $5m of his money.

I have done projects of passion. Last one was completed in February and the business opened in March. For five days. Being a new business, it isn't even eligible for any kind of assistance, so what I did there was to sink a bunch of money and sign a lease so that I have the privilege of adding an extra $1200 a month to my expense list. Decreasing expenses is absolutely something I've been working on, but investing my wages will take decades to build enough wealth to be meaningful.

[AnimalMuppet]

Wanting to get rich quickly is often a way to get poor. Be careful.

[Edit: Here's a quote I like. "Money is like gasoline on a road trip. You don't want to run out of gas on your trip, but you're not doing a tour of gas stations. You have to pay attention to money, but it shouldn't be about the money." - Tim O'Reilly]

[mcdoug]

Yes, absolutely. I am not after getting rich overnight. I am after getting rich in the timeframe of say 5-10 years. Quicker is better, but smarter is better than quicker.

[thrownaway954]

how about you don't abandon everyone around you and be happy with what you have.

i've said this before on HN.

i chased that BS idea of being rich would make me happy and in the process, got a divorce, lost my pom, became an alcoholic and lost my career. i was making a very decent living, was married to the love of my life and had an absolute jerk for a dog... what more should a man want in his life.

life isn't about what you can get, it's about what you can keep. if you can keep a marriage for 50 years, you are richer than jeff bezos.

i really hope you take a step back, realize that no amount of money in the world is going to make you happy, start being thankful for what you have and enjoy your life. years comes quick and there is no reason wasting them.

a wise man once said that no amount of money can buy you happiness... well it can buy you a pomeranian so i guess it can buy you some sort happiness LOL.

[mcdoug]

Money can buy me time, which is one of the most limited things we have on this earth. I know what you are saying and this is advice I've often given as well. But please consider that I never said that I was looking to buy happiness. I want money for practical purposes and I know what it can and can't do. I am quite happy in my personal life and money can only mildly enhance that. But I also am tired of budgeting for whether I need new tires or to get my moles looked at this month. Whether I should invest in a retirement fund or my kids' college fund. Whether I can go to a restaurant or buy a new pair of slacks and a couple of shirts. Whether to keep living in a house that's bursting because it's too small or sell my soul to a mortgage provider for a bigger one.

[bdcravens]

Remember that Amazon is a 25 year-old company. Bezos quit his job, took funding from family, and has always run a low-margin business, always playing a long game.

[mcdoug]

If I quit my job a bunch of people will be very negatively impacted. I can switch jobs and I can work on stuff in my spare time, but I can't go to zero income. Unlike Bezos, my family doesn't have anything they can loan me.

[bdcravens]

Of course, few have that luxury. When drawing comparisons, it's important to not have false equivalence.

[giantg2]

Yeah, I'd be living in a van down by the river if I quit.

[ethanwillis]

I own a van and have a river in my city, maybe you can bring the food?

[giantg2]

I would, but my wife would leave me.

[bordercases]

Life has tradeoffs – a lot of founders burn through marriages don't they?

[hn_acc_2]

A thread like this is not likely to help much. Think of it this way, how many of the people getting "stupid rich" do you think would credit their success to starting a thread asking other people how to get rich?

Some valuable pieces of advice I've heard:

1) Owning your work is important.

2) Because few people succeed the very first time, waiting for The Good Idea (TM) to come to you before getting started is foolish. The more effective strategy is to keep trying different things that play to your strengths and learn as much as you can from repeated failure.

3) Try to develop an internal motivation to complete projects and avoid talking to others about your projects for validation. The very act of mentioning your next Thing to your friends can have a powerful demotivating effect, because it tricks your brain into a dopamine response as if you actually already did the Thing [1]

[1] https://berkeleysciencereview.com/2013/04/when-telling-other...

[mcdoug]

It's possible I also just needed to rant about how tired I am of the rat race. You are right of course (though I might not 100% agree on your point #3; valuable connections often come out of spreading the word about your project and my motivation usually increases afterwards).

[rafiki6]

My friend, I'm very sorry to hear this. It seems like you are under a lot of pressure to be the financial backbone of your family. Without any knowledge of your circumstances, is there a way to have a frank discussion with some members to ask for their support? We tend to focus on thinking the soltuion to our money problems is getting more money/wealth. That is objectively true, but it might be at the risk of your mental and physical health. If you can get additional support from your family to contribute financially, please have that honest conversation and tell them how you are feeling.

Creating a winning startup is like the lottery. Lots of things have to go in your favor. It might be best, given the pressure you are feeling, to stay with the slow and steady market gains you are experiencing, as when we are under pressure we make bad stock market gambles.

I would also take a solid look at your budget/spending and see if you can cut anything at all. You'd be surprised with what you can cut out of your life.

Again, I am sympathetic to your pain and feel it myself.

[joenot443]

Based off your description, I would say the most pragmatic way to secure a slice of that pie and retire early would be to take up the Leetcode grind.

I was blessed to be in a position where I was able to spend nearly the entirety of my quarantine free time practicing Leetcode. Last week I signed an offer with an American FAANG level company and more than doubled my final TC. I realize this is a highly anecdotal, unusual scenario, but the possibility is there. Note that part of this was due to the weak $CAD, but regardless, the level of potential TC gains going from small startup or dev shop to FAANG level truly cannot be understated.

If you're interested in joining the rat race, Blind is a pretty good place to start.

[mcdoug]

LeetCode looks like a bootcamp/school for software development. I don't feel like that's where my weakness lies. I am a productive software developer and am up to date on most of the latest tech. Teaching for something like that would probably be more my speed. Also, where I live there are no FAANG companies and relocation is not an option. I work from home and unless there is a local software company that is hiring, I am out of luck.

What do you mean by TC and what is Blind? The rat race is pretty much what I'm trying to escape.

[qohen]

What do you mean by TC

Total compensation (i.e. salary + stock-options/RSUs, etc.)

and what is Blind?

https://www.teamblind.com/

From its Wikipedia page[0]:

Blind is an app that provides an anonymous forum and community for verified employees to discuss issues. Users on Blind are grouped by topics, company and their broader industry. The app verifies that the registered users actually work in the company through their work email and it keeps user identities untraceable through patented technology.

The app has been in the news in multiple cases, noticeably when its anonymous surveys reveal the frank opinions of employees across industries. However, it is also used for more discussions about everyday topics such as salaries.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_(app)

[mattbrewsbytes]

I think OP was referring to practicing for silly leetcode style interviews that FAANG companies are known for with the ultimate goal of getting a position at a FAANG (or in that ballpark) company and seeing your TC (I assume total compensation) double.

When Amazon was teasing numerous cities for their HQ2 I researched the stock options and if you can weather the rat race of working there for a few years, they would be a legit slice of the pie. Probably why OP was referring to total compensation, your take home pay might be about the same but the stock would surpass that when it vests, assuming it doesn't tank.

[maxchisto]

Don't get discouraged. I found a good 100% remote role through HN by posting and reading monthly "who's hiring" and "who wants to get hired" threads. Unfortunately we don't have open heads right now.

[mcdoug]

Yup, I've had good luck with those in the past. Main problem: I am not making way below my market salary. I might be maybe $20k lower than average due to some job perks, but just switching from small software company A to small software company B won't make me a ton more money. Equity in a hot startup might, so I guess I'll be on the lookout.

[econcon]

While softwares are scalable. Problem is that you not the owner of those softwares, will you be able to negotiate with your employees to give you 1-10% of the total profit they generate. Unlikely! Yes, software developers make a lot of money but they still end up in category of "expense" not revenue generator in accounting. You'll only get paid what it costs to replace you.

You need to start a business where you own total upside and total downside. It's high risk and high reward game, if you get lucky - you'll be in the names like Bezos.

Having worked with software developers, they hesitate from charging too much as they don't understand the value of the work they are providing and are generally happy making stable amount of money over lifetime.

This is not bad if you value stability. But if you want more, you need to play with fire. Highly likely you'll get burnt but that's what it takes.

I quit my job to produce 3d printing filament and I am making 7000 euros a month as the business grows, I'll probably make more but see it's a limited scope process to make filament so it's very scalable. I expect upside to increase steadily over few years before I plateau and then I plan to move on to another opportunity.

Here's my project: https://medium.com/endless-filament/make-your-filament-at-ho...

Just like me, pick a problem where people have money to pay and start finding how how to reduce costs and increase sales.

In business/sales/marketing you need to display confidence which often software developers lack (because they know of so many ways things can go wrong). Customer doesn't like this, customer wants to feel that your solution is flawless without any holes! That's where clever sales person come and sell the software solution for several multiples of what it costs to make it.

When you've enough money, you don't need to struggle - you need to do things that are fun for you and have upside.

[mixmastamyk]

The age-old question. There's basically few ways you can do it if you are committed to keeping a job rather than starting a business.

1) Cut expenses significantly. (Conservative approach.) 2) Boost income, via new job search? (Riskier.) 3. Put the rest of the family to work somehow.

Either way, a lot of it has to do with luck or connections, they can't be discounted. If there were a formulaic way to do it other than grinding it out, folks would be doing it already.

[mcdoug]

I have seen a lot of these threads over the years on HN. Most give your two options, with an occasional "read pg, do a startup" type advice thrown in. Things I have considered:

- Switching careers to work closer to where the money is. For example, working for a douchey hedge fund that can pay half a mil a year if things are going well.

- Putting together a pitch deck, flying out to CA and pitching it to every VC who will listen. I have a decent idea for a dating app that solves a lot of the problems with the current crop of dating apps. A VC paying my salary for a year while I develop something like that would work well for me.

- Networking my way up until I am rubbing elbows with the ultra rich and looking for opportunities to help them spend their money.

- Playing the lotto until I'm broke.

[dencodev]

I would recommend redefining wealth in your life to be something other than money. We all die and life is short - find something that you're fulfilled doing while you're still alive. I don't anticipate I will ever retire, but I hope to do something I enjoy until I die so in a way it doesn't matter. I don't want to do software for the next 20 years just so I can retire for 20 years before I die.

[cdnsteve]

Understand that pursuit of this as a priority will likely have a negative impact to other area's in your life. If someone is 100% career focused, there will be personal and family implications. Working and thinking about work all the time is not healthy. Burnout is real, and the impacts to your dependants can be massive.

Whatever direction you go, try to find balance. Good luck.

[TheFiend7]

This is always where I land. If you fail try try again, with effort and critical thought. But I just can't meaningfully dedicate the time to making more money at the expense of all the hobbies and other past times I love doing so much. I don't want to spend 20 years with hardly any enjoyment just to be able to retire at 55 instead of 70 or something.

It's a challenging decision to make and I also believe in most cases it isn't a decision that is "free" or without some form of consequences. All things come at a cost.

[giantg2]

I hate my job so much that I would love to retire at 55. I've already had to give up or greatly scale back my hobbies when I got married and had a kid. I also had to give up my career advancement (watching the kid means I can't work 50-60 hr/week, which is expected in IT).

[mcdoug]

Balance is important. This is why I'm not willing to sacrifice my family, but I am willing to work differently or in a different field. I am old enough to know what balance feels like to me and am always looking to make sure it's maintained.

[topicseed]

Wishing to get rich quick is often a quick way to get poor. Also, it's near-impossible to give more helpful advice without more details (e.g. expertise, risk appetite, free time, moral compass).

But:

1. Learn whatever it takes to work in the high-stakes financial world

2. Buy an existing blog, product, plugin, and grow it fast

3. Spend less

[mcdoug]

For #1, can you provide any concrete info? What skills, where to get them, how to start getting into that type of work, what does it pay and how, etc.

For #2, again, any specific advice? Are blogs still a profitable thing? What platform do you use to buy/sell blogs and/or plugins?

For #3, yeah already working on that one. Pandemic doesn't help with that.

[marketgod]

How old are you? Do you have a lazy stock portfolio? It's the first thing everyone should be starting at 18. Parents should be setting it up the day you are born.

Investing gradually you would have enough money to not worry. Saving with compounding is the best way for the general public.

[mcdoug]

Mid 30s. I have a small but slowly growing stock portfolio. If I keep going the way I am, in 5 years I might be able to buy a Model 3 with its worth. My family growing up invested in my education, not in a stock portfolio, so what I have is skills, not cash.

[marketgod]

Then maybe add more because the market returns are suppose say 5%, but they are generally much more higher, around 10% over a 15-year period. Over 14-years that money doubles, but the market is performing at 10%, and even higher lately, so that's 7 years. So instead of buying that model 3 in 5-years if you continue adding small increments that Model 3 turns into a Model S in 7-years.

The issue is many people hold a savings account in cash but then inflation eats you up, or they store it in a savings account, but then you break even with inflation. Taking advantage of compound interest is huge.

[giantg2]

And a Roth IRA for the kid as soon as they start working. Have them contribute 100% of their pay and then give them the same amount to use. I plan to do this with my kid.

[dirtybird04]

A wise man once told me "Never count another man's money" and I'll pass that on to you. Figure out what you want in life, stop comparing to the Adam Neumanns and Jeff Bezos of the world, that's a surefire way to lose your mind and self.

[mdocherty]

You can work to increase your income by working towards a promotion or finding a new job. The other option is to reduce your outgoings. Who are you supporting and why are you supporting them? Why are you stuck living in a VHCOL?

[mcdoug]

I am pretty much as high up in my company as I can be without being an owner. We don't use these terms, but effectively I am occupying the role of the CTO.

With the current pandemic I am doing very little going out. That doesn't mean my expenses are better off though. I am directly supporting two kids and my life partner who works but her career is very low paying. She takes care of most of her expenses but housing is on me. I indirectly support two other people because I care about them and their well being. I am stuck living where I am because I am divorced and my ex won't move. If I move I don't get to see my children, which isn't an option for me.

[mdocherty]

To me your goal should be a better payed role. I assume with your VHCOL that there are better jobs available. I would work on landing something better at big tech (FANG ideally).

Once you're there you can focus on your side projects or building your own SAAS etc.

[pryelluw]

Lets take inventory of your skills. Reason is that making money is a skill you can learn. You probably have some of the ingredients you need to make it work, but are lacking other key ones. So, list away.

[mcdoug]

Good point:

- Software engineering. I am a full stack developer. I can and do program things from embedded devices, to medium scale web apps, to front end stuff. My graphics skills are sub-par, but I do UX well and can whip up a software solution quickly or architect a complex system. Hardcore comp-sci is not my core skill set as I didn't study it, so I won't be coming up with the next great ML algorithm or factoring large integers, but I can do lots of non-trivial things well nonetheless.

- System administration. I grew up on Linux/BSDs and am pretty good at old school systems administration. I don't need to use Heroku to run my apps if I don't want to.

- Electronics development. I am not an electrical engineer but I studied physics. I have manufactured custom PCBs that actually worked and am pretty good with a soldering iron. One of the products I was working on in the past required a custom enclosure and a Wi-Fi connected embedded system that ran on batteries for several years. I designed and put together prototypes from scratch on my own for this, though the product ended up not taking off for other reasons.

- Leadership/management skills. I am good at organizing work and motivating people. People like working with me. I have led major projects in my career and feel like I can do that again. I would be happiest leading a team of 6-10 people if working in this role.

- Communication skills. I connect with people easily and quickly, especially in person. I didn't start out this way (if this was a thing where/when I grew up, my parents might have had me evaluated as autistic for my inability to feel empathy; I have swung way in the other direction with lots of work on myself over the years). I can often convince people to do things for me even if it goes against their self-interest. While I know I can do that, I am very cognizant of this ability and try to find outcomes that are win-win for everyone even if that means a worse outcome for me. I am good at negotiating (salaries, prices, contracts, etc.). I have no problem approaching a stranger, knocking on doors, asking for or offering help, etc.

- Interviewing skills. I am good at being interviewed (in my career I got many more job offers than been turned down). I am very good at interviewing others for jobs. I have almost always been able to tell who would fit in well and who wouldn't for any given situation.

- Writing/public speaking/teaching. I am a decent writer and a good public speaker. I am told that I am a very good teacher/mentor. People who I have taught in the past have all been very happy with the time and energy they spent in my classes and most have gotten very good at what I was teaching them.

- Photography. I am a decent amateur photographer. I mostly do boudoir photography with friends for fun, but can do portraits well. I have sold a few prints for several $100 each at a couple of art shows I entered on a whim, but due to the nature of what I typically photograph I don't think it has wide appeal.

- Mechanical, construction, plumbing, electrical. I am not a professional in any of these, but have done enough work on my vehicles and homes I've lived in to know what I'm doing. I fix my own vehicles routinely and have redone plumbing for a whole house and have done some electrical work.

- Woodworking. I'm learning how to do some woodworking, just for fun. I mostly make practical things, not art. For example, I built my own motorized sitting/standing desk from hardware store parts.

- 3D printing and small scale manufacturing. It's a hobby, but I'm pretty good at it.

Probably a few others I am forgetting, but these are the main ones.

[pryelluw]

Selling, which is the biggest skill you need to have, is clearly missing. Which explains a lot of your frustations.

I strongly suggest you read Way of the Wolf by Jordan Belfort. Best sales book there is. Go buy it right now.

Read it amd email me when you are done.

[mcdoug]

Will do. I have some sales experience though I never worked as a dedicated sales person. I've made cold calls that turned into paying gigs and I've done sales as an engineer: go present the technical aspects of the product and take potential customers from "who the hell are you guys?" to "how can I give you my money?". I also have a lot of negotiation experience and do quite well with that, but never a bad thing to get better at it.

[pryelluw]

Good, because you grasp the importance of my suggestion.

Emailing me to continue forward is also important. Otherwise you stay in the same place.

[sunstone]

If you didn't at least buy an S&P 500 index fund when it was tanking in March then investing might not be your strength.

Otherwise, as a rule of thumb, everyone who starts out poor and ends up rich does it in real estate. (That's not the same as saying everyone who invests in real estate gets rich.) There's a fundamental tenet of profitable investing that makes this so but you don't have to understand that in order to profit from a real estate investment.

It's not stupid to both rent the home you live in while at the same time buying a home to rent to others. This maximizes flexibility but with some extra effort.

[rdtwo]

The fist part is kind of garbage but real estate is true.

For whatever reason real estate gets preferential risk treatment in the US. If you pick a hot area you can double your leverage in 7-10 years that’s typically a 500% return. You don’t pay taxes on that gain and your downside is limited to 20% in most non recourse states.

That being said it would be hard to guess what a hot area is right now. Maybe Boise Idaho, and Bend Oregon

[quotz]

If youre focusing on the money youre gonna make a bad product... PG's essays really do explain everything so be sure to read them.

[mcdoug]

Yes, but not focusing on money is how you end up building a business that sells dollar bills for $0.90. A few "for fun" startups have blown up in the past (Instagram, Snapchat, YouTube), but the reason majority fail is lack of business plan for how to actually monetize what they are working on. I don't consider focus on sustainability for a business to be a bad thing, though if a VC handed me $10m to spend trying to buy users I won't say no.

[mlboss]

I think you should read The Black Swan. FAANG type companies are rare events. Nobody can plan a Unicorn company. They just happens. Look at the list of dead products that Google/Facebook creates every year. Even managers at FAANG don't know what is going to work.

You can focus on creating sustainable small software business. I don't know if you have read "Start small, Stay small" by Rob Wallings. It talks about creating a sustainable small business on the side.

[mcdoug]

I haven't seen that particular book and will give it a read, but I have attempted about a dozen lifestyle SaaS businesses. All went best like I was selling peanuts at an allergy sufferers' convention. I am always looking for more opportunities for something like this, but nothing so far has had the right overlap of profitable/my area of expertise/not requiring a stupidly high upfront investment.

[jmchuster]

If you want to become a millionaire some day, then you're already on that path as a software developer. You can get top dollar by working for FAANG and working your way up the levels.fyi. That's probably the peak you can get by working for someone else.

If you want to make it to become a billionaire, then the only way is to not work for someone else, to become the boss (owner). Which means, taking a huge risk in starting your own company and working until it becomes big. You can try to become huge quickly, as a startup unicorn (which then will take many tries till you succeed) or go for a more traditional business and continuously build it over a long period of time.

If you want to go somewhere in the middle and make tens of millions, maybe hundreds, then you can switch from the software developer track to the CEO track (note that i didn't say middle-manager track). In that case, you essentially prove that you can basically be a mini-CEO, but within the confines of a very large company, by heading up a department. Then you keep on doing this with larger and larger departments, until at the end you're the CEO of the company. And then from there you leap frog from company to company, being CEO of larger and larger companies. Of course, it's often very difficult to get to those chances within a company, so succeeding as the CEO of a startup and then getting acquired (and becoming the mini-CEO of your newly formed department) is kind a way to jump onto that track from the outside.

Or, you could try switching tracks and going into finance. There, starting as an employee, there's a more clear path to make your way up the chain to partner. And since your salary is more along the lines of a percentage of revenue, as opposed to a flat salary, there's an order of magnitude more potential than as an engineer employee.

[mcdoug]

Wow, this is one of the most helpful comments here. If I can ask for some details:

The CEO track sounds nice. I've done the middle management stuff before and was quite successful at it. In my last job I was heading up the software team for a software/hardware startup, as well as taking on partial management of the support team and the data entry team. I have been C-level at two companies but both were early stage when they went belly up so this is more a bullet point on a resume than something I can point to and say "look there it is". Currently I work for a small enough company that there isn't any more upwards mobility here. I am basically working as an individual contributor directly with clients. The projects are boring but the pay is good and the people I work with are excellent. How would you suggest making a leap from here to something bigger? I live in an area with lots of banks and insurance companies, but not much in the tech world.

On the finance side, again, how do you go about this? What kind of companies do you suggest and what jobs in them? Are hedge funds a good idea? Or do I need to commute to something like NYC and apply for something with a large investor? What qualifications should I focus on before jumping into this? Is mostly reliant on knowing the right people? Is it about technical knowledge of the subject? Or is it about impressing the right interviewer?

[jmchuster]

C-level at a startup is probably comparable to middle-manager at most companies, so like 10 reports. CEO track means you're in charge of like a hundred people minimum. You don't apply to jobs any more in the traditional sense. Companies hire executive placement firms to hire you. For your area, you probably need to find VPs from the big companies there and ask them about how their career path goes.

If you want to get rich in finance go to Harvard and get your MBA, and then just follow what everyone else around you in your class is doing.

[giantg2]

It's not fast, but check out Reddits like r/financialindependence

[csicseri]

One thing I'd encourage you to ask yourself is: what concretely are the things you would like to have in your life that you perceive as currently unattainable because you don't have enough money?

Your answer might simply be "a humongous bank balance" - and if so that's perfectly fine; money is (one way) that people "keep score" in life, and some people are motivated simply by trying to bag that high score. We've all heard of people who spend all their time accumulating enormous sums while living frugally, and die without apparently ever really getting to enjoy the fruits of their labor -- in many such cases I would argue that this is simply because it's the labor itself they enjoyed most, the chase after wealth, rather than what the wealth could buy them.

But let's be honest: many, if not most people who wish they were richer aren't looking at that bank balance as an end in itself. They want certain things from life, and those things vary a great deal from person to person. You might want to buy a big house. You might want to be able to indulge your expensive hobbies. You might want to travel the world. You might simply want to quit working and go lie on the beach and drink Mai Tais all day. Or perhaps it's the exact opposite: you have a big idea that you desperately want to work on you need the money to invest in that. Or you might actually not care so much about buying stuff: maybe you long for the feeling of having other people perceive you as rich, for example, or you want to exert power over other people in your environment.

I think it might be helpful to try to challenge yourself to identify what you would like to achieve, without reference to money. (Assuming you aren't one of those rare people for whom the bank balance in itself is the only goal - if so, ignore this exercise entirely.) Make a list, prioritizing it to the extent possible. Be honest with yourself (you're the only person who has to see this list): if, for example, the status of having other people perceive you as wealthy is important to you, write it down.

Then, go down your list and try to estimate how much money, realistically, you would need to attain each item.

Finally, go down the list again and, for each item, think about whether there are ways you could achieve it without getting rich. Write down all your ideas, even if they seem ridiculous or impractical. For example, you might want to travel the world, and being rich would certainly make that possible in a straightforward way, but plenty of people throughout history have "gone nomad" on little or no money. It might seem unthinkable given your current situation, family, etc. - or it might be that your idea of traveling the world is first-class airfare, not hitchhiking. That's fine. You should still write it down as a theoretical alternative, along with the objections. If (sticking with the example) world travel is is high on your list, it's helpful to clarify to yourself exactly what is keeping you from "just doing it," that is -- in the extreme case of not being able to afford it -- wandering the world with nothing more to your name than a backpack and a willingness to do odd jobs and see where life takes you. Is it because that's not what you mean when you say world travel, or is it because you have obligations you feel you can't throw over, or is it something else?

You may find that there are alternative, no- or little-money solutions to many of your goals, at least some of which may not be entirely impractical. Lots of times, befriending the right people can get you access to resources and experiences you might otherwise have to spend a huge amount of money. Are there things on your list that you could attain this way?

Other times, you might find something that isn't within your personal reach achievable if you join forces with others. For example, you might really, really want a plane. That can be pretty expensive of course (not so much the purchase, but everything else that goes around it), but lots of pilots pool their resources and own planes jointly with others, or simply join a flying club. You mentioned woodworking; let's assume for the sake of argument that you yearn for a really well-equipped woodshop. That can be expensive (especially if you need to buy a bigger house so you have room for it!) But -- be creative. Is there a makerspace near you? If not -- what if you founded one? (Aside from the "joining forces" aspect, makerspaces can often attract valuable equipment and space donations.) Go beyond the obvious if you can: could you, say, wangle yourself into a part-time job teaching woodworking to students at a school with a well-equipped shop but no one to use it?

Even if one of your goals is "have others perceive me as being rich" -- throughout the ages, lots and lots of people have been very successful at presenting themselves as much wealthier than they actually are. It's a skill you may be able develop, if that's actually what you want, what makes you happy.

At the end of the exercise, try to come up with a plan. You may have certain goals that you realize you can potentially attain via alternative methods. If they're important enough to you, you might even realize in the course of examining things that your best road is to disrupt your current life in a way that you previously thought unthinkable. You might have other goals that you decide aren't so important after all, that perhaps you're willing to abandon for the time being. And undoubtedly there will be some goals that are both very important to you and that you feel, realistically, are only attainable by amassing enough money - the amount that you estimated in your first pass over the list.

Arrange those goals in the order you want to achieve them - some things, after all, you might be able to delay for a significant time (e.g. tuition to college of choice for currently school-age kids), whereas others you might be unwilling to delay any longer. Try to assign approximate timelines for each.

If you plot these on a graph, you arrive at a very rough estimate of future expenditures. You now have a concrete target -- not just a single number, but a time series -- for the wealth that you want to accumulate. If you're lucky, this isn't overly front-loaded. If you need a million dollars for something you feel you just have to have tomorrow, you might just be out of luck. (Although, depending on what it is, you might be able to use appropriate leverage. Starting a business is your goal? What sources of credit could you potentially scare up?)

Best case scenario, your graph starts relatively low and trends up over time (that is, you can delay progressively larger expenditures for longer). Then, draw a curve based on your current wealth and investable income, projecting growth forward at a reasonable rate of return, and taking into account your projected future expenditures. If you're really lucky, then that curve stays above the expenditure timeline the whole way. Then you're done -- no need to worry any more about getting rich, because by your definition of being rich (being able to afford all the things you want, when you want them) you already are. :-)

[csicseri]

[continued] Seriously, that probably isn't your situation. Even after exploring alternative paths to your goals, there are expensive things you want that you will never be able to attain based on your current wealth and income. Assuming you don't win the lottery, receive an inheritance from a long-lost uncle, or find a giant bag of money on the street, you can't change your starting wealth, so project the curve forward again using various incomes. Don't forget to take into account the possibility of not changing your gross income, but increasing the proportion of it you can invest, if that is a possibility.

Eventually you should arrive at roughly the income that you need to be "rich" (in the sense of being able to afford everything you actually want). In my experience, this number could very well be much smaller than you would have guessed before you did the whole exercise. It might seem much, much more attainable than it was when your only goal. This is important, because sometimes realizing your goals are more attainable than you thought is the thing that will propel you to take that first step.

What that first step should be? I honestly can't say. I don't have any real insight into how to get rich quick; I doubt anyone does.

For me personally, the process of assessing what I really wanted from life and how much money I'd need to do it led me, about ten years ago, to make a career change. It wasn't anything super-dramatic or risky, and I had no expectations of becoming wealthy. That wasn't my intent per se - what I wanted was a reasonable assurance, as I approached middle age, that I'd be able to achieve certain goals that were important to me. I left my life of genteel poverty (a.k.a. academia) and joined a small company, and did my best to help make it a somewhat larger company. I succeeded pretty well in that and made more than enough to achieve all the things on my personal list. The remainder, for me, has been gravy. To be fair, I've mostly avoided "shifting the goalposts," that is, wanting more and more expensive things as my wealth increased. That's a trap that is easy to fall into.

I think the average person, somehow seeing my bank balance toay, would class me as rich (not obscenely so by any means, but I'm definitely more than well-off). The point is: I never set out to be rich. Ten years ago, I would never have even dreamed of ending up where I did. I didn't join a small company thinking "startup, I might cash out and be rich." I thought it was just... a "small company." I didn't even know what stock options were when I got them - I threw them in a drawer and forgot about them. If they had never amounted to anything and I had just continued to draw my salary to this day... well, I'd probably be just as happy as I am now. Why? Because I evaluated, ten years ago, what I'd actually need to be happy, and realized that I could make a few changes in my life and be fairly confident of being able to afford those things. If the stock-option windfall had never come, I might not be "rich" today by the average person's definition, but I'd still all the major things that I wanted from that list, and more. In other words, I'd be rich by my own definition.

[momentmaker]

Since you mentioned crypto trading, might I suggest you take a deeper look at what fundamentally blockchain can accomplish via smart contract and then invest in project that will be powering it.

One project I'd suggest you checking is Chainlink. Check out these reading and video:

https://blog.goodaudience.com/chainlink-the-missing-piece-to...

https://medium.com/@smartcontentpublication/accessing-all-bl...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufVyX7JDCgg

Cheers to financial freedom :)

[s1t5]

You're esssentially suggesting gambling to someone with money concerns.

[giantg2]

Well yeah, the people without money concerns don't need to gamble because they already have money.

[mcdoug]

Thanks. I'll look into it.

[gus_massa]

With cryptocoins trading you can earn money or loose money. Remember: "Never invest more than you can afford to lose."

[mcdoug]

Yeah, that's the problem. I am happy to invest a couple of thousand bucks into something, and while crypto can have some very large returns at times, I'd have to hit something just right for it to grow 500-1000x. I am sitting on some Stellars and a few other cryptocurrencies but the amounts aren't large enough. Even if I double my investment, it'll pretty much allow me to pay a month's of rent or so, not retire. Gambling huge sums requires that you are already rich. That's where a 5% gain in a particular cryptocurrency nets meaningful results.