[reducesuffering]

The 200k Tesla Roadster is expected to have 600 mile range. What ICE car exceeds that? Most ICE are at about ~450 mile range, Model S is at 400 now. There's going to be a lot of battery improvements over the next couple decades pushing EV range far past ICE.

[GuB-42]

Gasoline has more than 10x the energy density of Li-ion batteries, with relative efficiency taken into account. I don't expect to see BEV exceeding ICE in range anytime soon.

Long haul trucks can do 2000 miles no problem, and extending the range is just a matter of adding more tanks. For now, there is no real competition over range in ICE cars, but if that becomes a thing, you can't win with batteries.

The only batteries that could compete would be lithium-air, and they are still in research phase, with no large scale commercial use in sight yet.

[Darvon]

What if instead of adding more tanks of petrol, you added more trailers of batteries.

[slaman]

Because the energy density problem. A trailer of fuel holds more energy than a trailer of batteries for the same weight.

No matter how much battery you add, it's always possible to get more range with less weight in fuel, and with less diminishing returns.

[rbanffy]

Energy density is just part of the equation. EV's also can use regenerative braking and recharge when going downhill. That's how Tesla's achieve their mileage. Electric engines are substantially more compact and lighter than similarly powered ICE's, giving more mass and volume budget to add extra batteries.

In the specific case of trucks, in most places you can't demand a driver to do a 2000 mile leg on a single stretch and, with the required pause to rest, it's also easy to recharge. A limit of 700 miles should be considered a reasonable target for truck range on a single charge.

Airplanes are probably the place where internal combustion (or not quite internal, but still combustion, as turboprop and jets are not ICE's) will have a significant share for a long time. Even there, short haul small planes are already electrifying.

[loeg]

My mid-2010s Subaru SUV has ~550 mile range, and fill-ups take ~5 minutes.

Semis can have 2000+ mile ranges.

I am also excited to see battery densities increase, but so far the way we're getting comparable range in EVs is by allocating a greater proportion of weight to fuel. And recharging is still relatively slow.

[Diederich]

Right; see my other comment about recent experiences with a long drive in a Tesla Model S.

nothing beats the distance over time you can get with a gas vehicle, given also how quickly you can add range.

Many years ago, we used to drive from the midwest to California every year, which was two 800 mile days. We covered that 800 miles in about 13 hours, which is an average of 60 miles per hour.

A few weeks ago, we drove 800 miles in our Tesla, and did it in 16.5 hours, which is a little less than 50 miles per hour.

Which is quite respectable actually.

[magnetic]

> And recharging is still relatively slow.

I know not all EVs are Tesla, but it's interesting to see where charging is going (others will follow suit).

Supercharging v3 gives you 1,000 miles of range per hour of charge (approx. if you're in the 20-80% SOC range I think). If you take a 6 min bathroom (or other) break every 100 miles (roughly every couple of hours), you can replenish those 100 miles during that break.

Personally, I find superchargers "too quick", as I tend to stop for lunch with my family when I supercharge, and I find myself having to rush to finish lunch so I can get the car out of the charger for someone else to be able to use it. I wish there was an option to say "charge slower and give that juice to the other guy" (many/most current supercharger "pods" have to share the current flow with another car).

https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging

[loeg]

> Personally, I find superchargers "too quick", as I tend to stop for lunch with my family when I supercharge, and I find myself having to rush to finish lunch so I can get the car out…

Pumping gas, I usually do not have time to even squeegee all the windows; I've never wanted to stop for lunch while getting gas.

[rbanffy]

The routine is different. You fill the tank, then park and get lunch. If you recharge while parked, the recharge time should approximate the duration of your lunch stop. Abundance of chargers may remove the urge to take the car out of the recharger before you finish lunch.

[FDSGSG]

> What ICE car exceeds that?

BMW 730Ld will do 1000 miles. Even the petrol 740Li will manage over 700 miles.

[objclxt]

> The 200k Tesla Roadster is expected to have 600 mile range. What ICE car exceeds that?

A large number of diesel cars can easily go over 600 miles. The Audi A8 and VW Jetta, to pick two random examples, can go 650+ miles on a single tank.

[reducesuffering]

Aren't these essentially banned from new production due their extreme particulate pollution?

[toast0]

I don't think particulates was an issue (but I couldbe wrong). The main issue was Nitrogen Oxide emissions.

Basically, when not in emissions testing mode, the engine was running at higher temperatures which improves fuel efficiency but generates more NO from atmospheric Nitrogen. Also, the vehicles had insufficently sized or simply missing diesel exhaust fluid (mostly urea and blue coloring) resevoirs, so not enough was injected to react with the NO to hit targets; injecting DEF into the engine also reduces fuel efficiency. There was also something about not properly cycling the special catalytic converter for NO, which would probably show an efficiency difference on long trips.

I sold back my VW diesel and stopped paying attention, it would be interesting to see what the measured real life fuel efficiency is before and after the changes required by regulators.

[dghughes]

>What ICE car exceeds that?

When it was new (3 - 5 years old) my Dodge 2500 turbo diesel with a 120 liter fuel tank (31.7 US gallons) went 1,000km (620 miles) per tank. That's highway miles of course but 1,000km per tank is not exactly mind blowing it works out to 23.5 Imperial mpg or 18 US mpg.

An old cow-orker of mine said his old VW Rabbit diesel manual trans did 80 Imperial mpg (66 US mpg) on the highway. I have no way to verify that could be 10% BS. I've seen 50 US mpg stated (60 Imperial mpg). But who know synthetic oil, slim tires, highway miles, slow speeds all that may get it to the 70s mpg.

[toast0]

It's a PHEV, but my Ford C-Max Energi will do over 600 miles on the 14 gallon tank in long distance driving (full charge gets you 20ish miles of stop and go, or 5 miles of highway, so basically doesn't matter). I'd guess the HEV version should do better, as it has less battery weight, but is otherwise pretty similar AFAIK.

Many cars have 16-20 gallon tanks, so a 14 gallon is fairly small (although 600+ miles is plenty)

[brohee]

Someone beat the cannonball record (NY to LA) during the confinement with only one fuel stop...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvQFDtJUdHw

[loeg]

They (and every other recent cannonball) retrofitted aftermarket fuel tanks to their trunk.

[brohee]

Off course, and actually more than the trunk, rear seats and even passenger seat in that case, but you absolutely cannot do that to a meaningful usefulness with extra batteries.

[jjeaff]

My 2007 Chevy Avalanche. And that's actual freeway miles in a car that actually exists.

I have no doubt, musk will get the new roadster out there. But I have no reason to believe he isn't overpromising on the mileage.

[throwaway0a5e]

>What ICE car exceeds that?

Pretty much pickup truck with the base 6cyl engine from the days when an 8ft bed also resulted in the vehicle being equipped with two gas tanks.

Also tons of random sedans beat 600mi.

[acdha]

The VW Jetta TDI I bought in 1999 got over 50mpg on the highway (mid-40s city) and had a 14.5 gallon tank. The longest I ever got it was ~700 miles at an average of 52mpg.

[ruste]

And then the EV has to stop and charge for a couple hours. The ICE stops for gas for 10min. Also, check out records like the cross-country NY to LA cannonball run. Cars used there add additional gas tanks to extend range. I'd bet by the time you added enough fuel to a car to equate the weight of an EV battery the range would be significantly higher than that of the EV

[kingnothing]

The EV does not have to stop and charge for a couple of hours. Tesla's V3 superchargers charge at a rate of 1000 miles per hour. Those aren't widespread yet, but the common V2 superchargers provide about 560 miles per hour of charge.

[specialp]

The "miles per hour" charging rate is very misleading. Yes if you wanted to charge a bunch of Teslas to 20% capacity and swap them out after a few minutes each you'd get 1000 "miles charged per hour" But as the battery fills on each car, that rate drops substantially.

If only gas stations marketed their pumps like that. 10 gallons of gas can come out in 1.5 minutes in a Prius resulting in a fill rate of (500 miles range * 40 fill-ups per hour) = 20k mph! We won't consider the time it takes for the next user to get in and put the hose in because Tesla doesn't either.

I am a fan of EV vehicles as well but the long range fill up story is still not good.

[kingnothing]

You can charge at that full rate to about 80% battery capacity. And none of that matters because 99% of charging is done at home at night. I guarantee the average EV owner spends less time inconvenienced charging their car than the average ICE vehicle owner spends standing at a filthy, toxic gas pump. The only time an EV owner thinks about charging is on a road trip.

[specialp]

I don't know why there is some immune response when pointing out anything negative about an EV at the moment. I just said that the "1000 miles per hour" charge rate is disingenuous at best.

Also it is not true that the supercharger v3 charges at full rate until 80% [1]. The curve drops off quite a bit shortly after 20%. The other points you made, well I never disagreed with that. There are a lot of benefits to an EV, but one clear downside (at the moment) is the long trip charging. This is just a fact and not an indictment about EVs in general

[1] https://cleantechnica.com/files/2019/03/Tesla-Model-3-Long-R...

[ruste]

But it does matter here, where we're talking about charging under time constraints...

[Sebb767]

Your average gas pump seems to pump about 38l/min [0]. Using a rather inefficient car with an usage of 10l/100km, you get an added range of 22800 km/h, or 14250 miles/h. So, still a factor 14 to go.

[0] https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-flow-rate-of-gasoline-stat...

[j88439h84]

> And then the EV has to stop and charge for a couple hours.

600 mi at 10mi/hr is 10 hours, so probably ready for a break.

[filoleg]

> And then the EV has to stop and charge for a couple hours.

Also, it isn't a couple of hours at all. 10% to 90% charge in model 3 takes about 50 minutes using a V2 supercharger (the most ubiquitous one) and about 40 mins using a V3 supercharger.

And both take much faster to get to lower percentages, due to the charge rate curve looking more like a log(1/x) graph, with rapid charge rate at the beginning that slows down the more your car is charged.

[viklove]

An hour is still a hell of a long time to wait for your car to fill up, especially when you're used to going from 5% to 100% in ~10 minutes.

[filoleg]

Again, the charge time is non-linear. You can get from 0 to 50% in just 20 mins. And also, if you are doing a long drive, won't you be stopping for 20-30 mins at least every 200-300 miles (roughly every 3 hours)? Just for bathroom breaks, to get some food, to stand up and stretch, etc.? Imo, this doesn't seem that bad at all.

I had the same kind of anxiety over charging too, but since getting an EV and doing multiple cross-state road trips in it and with just tons of daily usage, I found that worry to be unfounded.

[viklove]

Not at all, I recently completed a road trip from Chicago to Blue Ridge, Georgia with a full car (5 people, including me) in a Hyundai Sonata. It was an 11 hour drive. On the way there we stopped exactly once, and on the way back we stopped twice.

If we did this in a Tesla, we would've had to stop far more times, or each stop would have to have been much longer. That's not great.

[RandomBacon]

My 2019 gasoline truck can.

(Dodge Ram)

[mywittyname]

Dual gas tanks FTW.

[throwaway0a5e]

Unless someone recently started doing it again trucks don't come with dual tanks anymore and haven't since the OEMs refreshed their designs in the mid to late 1990s.

[RandomBacon]

Mine just has a single 33 gallon tank (and I can get over 20 miles per gallon on the highway).