[izacus]

I wonder why this is being downvoted - Google asks for subscription for features that this app hacks for free. In any other context this would be deemed unethical (or even piracy). E.g. think of an application that streams Apple Music without paying Apple or distributors of cracked apps with enabled in-app purchase features.

And yet the HN community happily endorses such apps when it comes to Google. I also wonder why moderators think that this is acceptable in terms of YouTube.

[NMDaniel]

That's not piracy. Youtube is sending you packets, out of their own choice. It's my own right to save those packets(without re-distributing) them and watch them in any form I like.

Playing in the background is not a "feature", it's a basic device capability, the fact that YouTube went out of their way to prevent it does not make it right, imagine if the browser client had stopped playing when you went out of focus - that'd be completely unacceptable. The fact that somehow this is accepted on smartphones probably says more about consumers lack of technological competence and awareness (and maybe historical reasons, as earlier versions of Android/iOS didn't have proper multi-tasking)

[izacus]

In most cases (my experience comes from working in broadcast industry but not specifically YouTube), those restrictions are there due to creators wanting to be paid for background playback (this is in 99% cases for music, where not adding this restriction would essentially make creators and the might copyright holders unpaid).

So bypassing the wishes of copyright holder / creator and getting the content for free is pretty much textbook definition of piracy.

Now, we can debate whether piracy is ethical in some cases (and I think it is in many cases, especially due to how cancerous the copyright lobby is these days). But let's not pretend that having a service provider say "hey, pay us 10$ a month for this feature" and then making an app that gives that paid feature for free is some kind of right.

[noisem4ker]

With Android, I believe you could always run anything you wanted in the background, provided you had enough memory. Starting with versions 5-6, restrictions have been put in to prevent abuses and battery draining with the user unaware of it. The two OSs converged towards a mean point from opposite directions in this case.

[kevin_thibedeau]

They're inconsistent. On Firefox Android you can't play in the background using the mobile site but if you switch to the desktop site all of a sudden background play starts working.

[noisem4ker]

That's because Google deliberately prevents background playback on mobile devices, bringing mobile browsers down to the same level of the YouTube app using shady JavaScript APIs. This add-on should fix it: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/video-backgro...

[VikingCoder]

No, that's not how any of this works.

Google has terms of use on their service.

You are violating those terms of service.

This is completely cut and dry.

[frenchy]

> Google has terms of use on their service.

> You are violating those terms of service.

That's not what piracy means, and that's not how the law works. If I state that the terms of service of reading this comment are that you must hop on one leg for the rest of your life, and you continue to walk on two, you won't be violating any laws.

[VikingCoder]

I didn't say you're violating laws (but you may well be violating DMCA sections), I said you're violating terms of service. The expectation could be that they halt your use of the service, block access to their other service, and may disable your account.

OP claimed, "It's my own right to save those packets(without re-distributing) them and watch them in any form I like." That is not accurate. He doesn't magically GAIN COPYRIGHT over content, just because he downloaded it. His use MAY be covered by Fair Use Laws, but it may also still be a violation of YouTube's Terms of Service.

[kevin_thibedeau]

Google is willfully sending the data. If they want stricter access controls it's their job to implement them. TOS isn't a binding contract since one side never gets a chance to negotiate terms.

[VikingCoder]

Yes, and if they start identifying Google accounts that share the IP of a device violating YouTube TOS and disabling those accounts, some people will be very sad.

They should at least consider the possibility. Go in with open eyes, so to say.

This story comes to mind:

https://www.extremetech.com/mobile/239728-google-suspends-ac...

[NMDaniel]

Nowhere did I imply that I'd gain copyright over the content.

What's the difference between downloading and streaming a video? It's OK for the bytes to stay in main memory/network cache, but not in HDD? Would taking a memory dump of the RAM break their TOS?

[VikingCoder]

Yes, you did imply that you'd be able to copy the content how you like, when you said,

"It's my own right to save those packets(without re-distributing) them and watch them in any form I like."

YouTube lets you rent movies for 48 hours.

You download a movie. You then claimed you can watch the movie in any form you like. Such as, later than the 48 hours.

[NMDaniel]

Assuming this is true(that there's a clause against viewing YouTube with a third party client), then they're free to ban users like me from their service(and suffer the PR backlash), that doesn't mean that breaking that clause is unethical or illegal(I'm not from the US, we don't have draconian internet laws here)

[VikingCoder]

You're correct that it doesn't prove that it's unethical.

It just also is unethical. Cheers.

[toohotatopic]

Which part of the terms does it violate?

[VikingCoder]

https://www.youtube.com/static?template=terms#ad6952fd3c

Under the heading, "Permissions and Restrictions":

> The following restrictions apply to your use of the Service. You are not allowed to:

> 1. access, reproduce, download, distribute, transmit, broadcast, display, sell, license, alter, modify or otherwise use any part of the Service or any Content except: (a) as expressly authorized by the Service; or (b) with prior written permission from YouTube and, if applicable, the respective rights holders;

> 2. circumvent, disable, fraudulently engage with, or otherwise interfere with any part of the Service (or attempt to do any of these things), including security-related features or features that (a) prevent or restrict the copying or other use of Content or (b) limit the use of the Service or Content;

> 3. access the Service using any automated means (such as robots, botnets or scrapers) except (a) in the case of public search engines, in accordance with YouTube’s robots.txt file; or (b) with YouTube’s prior written permission;

[ativzzz]

The users using 3rd party apps don't violate any of these terms (I'm sure you could argue it both ways depending on the specific legal terms depending on the context; IANAL). The app itself is probably violating some of these terms, but for the end users, they are not doing any of the things described, they are just using the app.

I think this is just one of those cases where copyright/IP law moves too slowly compared to the technology it tries to cover.

[VikingCoder]

I'm sorry, but a plain English reading of those Terms and Conditions shows that any users using 3rd party apps violates the terms.

They are "accessing ... part of the Service or Content [without being] expressly authorized."

To make it concrete, as an example, a user using youtube-dl is violating the terms. Not the makers of youtube-dl.

[noisem4ker]

>features that this app hacks for free

I'd like to focus on a single point here: background playback. If anything, it's Google that's stepping over the boundaries in this situation, trespassing the typical boundaries of an app and breaking the natural interaction model. How I consume (or not) the output of an app should be none of its business. I expect to be able to switch windows, minimize, look away, turn off the screen or mute the volume without the app knowing and acting differently. Forbidding me to do so is an artificial anti-feature and doesn't bring me any sympathy towards Google and their paid offering.

I would keep using NewPipe along with the official app even if it showed ads (which I consider tolerable in YouTube's case) for sanity-restoring features like this one.

[haecceity]

I don't want those features and I don't want to be asked if I want those features everyday.

[Latty]

I don't think it is that simple. When it comes to not playing the ads, I agree that is a problem. When it comes to the features, I think it is different.

One of the features is background playback of audio from videos. On the desktop, that's a feature that exists thanks to your window manager. Is that unethical?

It isn't stealing to use another method to get a feature someone is selling you, any more than using a third party DVR is stealing from a company offering you one as part of a more expensive package.

They have implemented the feature independently, and are providing it as a way of doing the same thing as something YouTube is selling you, I don't see that as a problem.

(NewPipe also has features that YouTube's app just doesn't support at all, like higher speed playback than 2x).

[asfgianion]

Piracy isn't unethical.

[stjo]

As a pirate myself - elaborate more on that please. Sounds like an interesting problem

[CuriousCosmic]

The big thing is that pirates would most likely not pay for the thing they are pirating if it was not available legally. This isn't by any means universal but take video games for example.

Developers have long since abandoned the concept of providing demos to "try the game" before you buy it. If I am thinking about buying a game but can't be convinced that I'll get my money's worth, I'll pirate the game. If I end up liking the game, I might as well buy it so that I can use online features, receive updates, and not have to worry with the crack causing weird bugs. In these cases, piracy has filled in the roll of demo software and provides a net positive for companies because any converts to paying customers would likely have never purchased the game had they not pirated it.

Alternatively, look at something like the anime fansub scene. Fansubs often have far better quality than anything you'll see coming from legitimate anime streaming services. I pay for anime streaming subscriptions but I can't count the number of times I've refused to watch something on the service due to how bad the subtitles were, torrented an actually good fansub, and then supported the series (not the streaming platform) through alternative means.

You also have the digital preservation aspect. Piracy is the reason most early console games are playable nowadays. Emulators aren't really legal and all of the published ROMs are very much pirated content but if they didn't exist, how many games would be either extraordinarily rare or lost to time by now. Same goes for music. What.cd was an incredible archive of music and it preserved tonnes of tracks from small now defunct bands throughout the start of the millennium. This is all content that would otherwise be lost to time if pirates hadn't preserved them due to their own motivations.

There's more on this out on the web. I read a really cool article about it a while back but I can't find it atm.

[namdnay]

The difference here is that you’re not downloading a copy of a video from one private user to another. You’re downloading the video from Google, using Google’s bandwidth and their servers.