[eric4smith]

One of my favorite You-tubers Andrew Camarata told the story of how he got a chainsaw at 10 years old. He hid it from his dad for months and used it. Then when his dad saw it he allowed him to use it on the provisio that he "be careful".

The trouble with the world today is that we're no longer allowing our kids to do anything useful for fear that they "injure" themselves.

So everyone grow up not really knowing even how to hammer a nail. I sympathize with your feeling having a kid myself, but without exposing them to even some slight danger, they will not grow up learning how to navigate the dangers in the world.

[TaylorAlexander]

My friends have a kid. Every time she stands on top of something adults don’t normally stand on, they tell her to get off because she could hurt herself. Like standing on a chair, standing on a concrete thing outside, etc. Whenever she’s doing something slightly dangerous, they demand that she stops. They don’t even say “be careful, you could fall”. They just sternly say “get down from there that’s not safe.” Hard to watch.

[germinalphrase]

Sawstop saws are pretty cool [0]. I’ve been in the woodshop of a nearby high school that has two of their table saws installed. On the wall are attached three wrecked blades from a student setting off the safety mechanism. Each one could have been some kid’s finger or hand.

I’m sympathetic to your argument - but power tools aren’t ‘slight’ danger.

[0]https://www.sawstop.com/

[eric4smith]

They are not a problem if a parent teaches young kids how to use them properly. I'm not for just throwing power tools at kids.

The point i'm making is that in high school we had wood and metal shop. Welding. Electrical. NONE of those classes exist anymore. And with helicopter parenting kids aren't learning them either.

[AlotOfReading]

The problem with power tools is that even if you know how to use them, a momentary lapse can lead to permanent disability. My father has been using them for decades. He got stupid with a table saw once recently and severed the tendons to half his fingers. A few tens of thousands in reconstructive surgery later, we're still not sure if he'll ever be 100% in that hand. Statistically, some kids are going to do the same. I can totally understand why people don't think the marginal utility of being able to use power tools outweighs the risk without safety measures like the sawstop.

[troydavis]

> They are not a problem if a parent teaches young kids how to use them properly.

The statistics don’t bear out that training or experience eliminates risk of serious injury. It’s even trivially disprovable with anecdotes - tons of experienced woodworkers have had blade touches and/or kickback-induced blade touches. Here’s 3:

https://www.woodworkingfunhour.com/blog/2020/1/16/015-matts-...

https://twitter.com/JimmyDiResta/status/318214766818635776

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fifjjacjLBE

If anyone is learning advanced shop safety, a few years ago I made the advanced survey that I wished existed: http://sawsafely.org/ . http://sawsafely.org/#injury-research-&-statistics has table saw injury stats. In an era of flesh-detecting table saws, using a table saw without it (other than weird special-purpose saws) means underestimating either the probability or the consequences.

[Fjolsvith]

My father's trade was journeyman carpenter. His hands are so mangled and scarred from saws and air nailers. He has been doing it so long that he doesn't pay attention.

For myself, every time I pick up a saw, I imagine cutting my finger off and it makes me take care.

When I aim the air nailer, I make sure my hands are further away than the nail length. I've had nails deflect on unseen defects inside the wood and poke out the other side where I didn't expect.

[mtrower]

I think the point (certainly one I would make) is not that risk doesn't exist, but that overavoidance of risk is a problem. Yes, given the prevalence of power tools, there are statistically going to be some accidents (especially with the cavalier culture many shops have regarding tools). And yes, it sucks to be the statistic. I'm still glad I grew up around tools (and people who knew how to use them). As a result, I'm pretty handy with them, unlike many adults I know who are just super-awkward around them.

Regarding flesh-detecting table saws (which I fully support), there's a third possibility - lack of funds. Those things are seriously expensive. When the choice is not between sawstop and traditional saws, but instead traditional table saw or none, the traditional table saw can still be a worthy investment. It's all situational.

[SECProto]

> The point i'm making is that in high school we had wood and metal shop. Welding. Electrical. NONE of those classes exist anymore. And with helicopter parenting kids aren't learning them either.

I had woodworking in high school, but no metal shop, no welding, no electrical. And most of the woodworking class was spent hand-sanding with worn out sandpaper from a drawer full - because the school didn't have enough funding to buy new paper each semester.

That said, I am better prepared for doing welding or electrical than my older relatives at my age, because I have access to youtube. It might be less reliable than learning it in school would have been, but I don't remember much from high school shop class anyway.

[albatross]

Sawstops are great and likely the reason I still count in base ten (I set one off in my university's woodshop years ago). The saw I was using at the time cost upwards of $10k (I was told) and the cartridges that stop the blade were ~$100 each at the time.

Even though I was using a tool with a very high tolerance for error, it was thoroughly impressed upon me that each cut I make requires consideration of the danger I am exposing myself to.

I use a $150 table saw today, and for every cut I make I run through a mental checklist to determine whether what I am going to be doing is within my own personal acceptable margin of safety, because that thing will not care one bit if my finger is in the way.

I'm all for safe tools, but my fear is that it grants a false sense of security for the user (in particular new ones), particularly when translating those skills to a new tool (another table saw in this case).

[mtrower]

This.

There's that promotional video with the hotdog where the saw doesn't even open a gash in it. Just pops right down.

That's nice and all for marketing, but the reality is that even Sawstops can mess up fingers pretty good. Sure, there's a far better chance of you keeping it, but still.

It's a last line of defense. A person really ought to act as though it isn't even there.

[sojournerc]

Table saws are probably the most dangerous power tool in the wood shop. Kick back is more likely than inadvertently sticking a finger in the blade. In fact most amputations are from kick back pulling fingers into the blade. Saw stop is amazing tech. Just be sure to use a splitter or riving knife

[war1025]

Well, they're 4, 2, and 2. Maybe in a couple years we'll get more adventurous with power tools. They're still working on "don't run out in front of cars"

[calvinmorrison]

Fewer kids probably after missing fingers these days

[pests]

+1 to Andrew Camarata. Great guy, great work ethic, fun videos.

[dboreham]

He's the reason I own an excavator and a track loader and a dump trailer. And a power grease gun.