[dontknowwhatdo]

I can attest to this. Being right means nothing in a relationship unless it is combined with compassion. I've been married for 20 years, and life now sucks as I am belittled or criticised on a regular basis. My children and I constantly walk on egg shells around my wife. And of course she is always right.

Having a partner who is always right is one of the worst things that can happen to anyone. Each day feels like a challenge to live without setting off the ticking time bomb that my wife is. Trouble is, I can't seem to find a way to communicate with my wife. She doesn't want to see a therapist. I am an immigrant in a foreign country and have no family or close friends I can turn to.

I'm just waiting for my kid to leave for college and then hopefully I can find a way out. I've reached a point where I detest people who are convinced they are right. The best thing anyone ever said to me when I told them that as I age I am less certain about everything and they said: "It means you are growing up". I wish someone would tell my wife that. She is dead certain about everything in life.

[lovemenot]

Your life situation is very similar to my own. Except for the one key difference. Your comment made me appreciate my Japanese wife's daily tolerance even more. Thanks to you I have just told her so.

[seattle_spring]

I'm really sorry you're dealing with this. My father was similar to my mother, me, and my siblings, and it's still fucking me up decades after moving out.

[throwaway136466]

Same here, except I'm not moved out yet. Here's hoping we're all able to get past it.

[ncarroll]

I think you are on to something with the need for combining compassion for all parties with nearly every emotion in a relationship. If she wasn't always like this maybe she is feeling now like she is in over her head and doesn't know how to admit that to a world she feels is expecting her to perform flawlessly. Sometimes, always needing to be right can be a form of frustration and criticism an expression of helplessness. In that case, maybe talk is less helpful.

I am not a psychologist. I'm only speaking from my own experience, but it is helping me in a situation something like yours to look carefully at circumstance and hear criticism gently, less personally. I am finding that "a little less talk and a little more (compassionate) action" is key in my situation. I wish you the best of luck finding the key to yours.

[ximeng]

You don't need to wait for kid to leave for college to stand up for yourself. Make plans to be ready to leave is first step to communicating. You can't influence her behaviour without changing your own.

[pdfernhout]

That must be difficult -- especially feeling isolated as an immigrant. Kudos to you for doing a lot of hard work emotionally to stick with an unpleasant situation for so long for your kids and planning to tough it out for another few years for them. That effort acknowledged, is there any way to make things better for everyone involved so the energy it takes up for emotional endurance in the face of difficulty could go into other more positive directions?

Creating a face-to-face support group for yourself with even just one local friend might help (difficult right now with the pandemic). Or if that seemed impossible (you could ask yourself why), if you turned to a professional counselor just for yourself (given your wife won't go), after evaluating your situation (and charging you a bunch of money as essentially a paid friend), here are some things that maybe one might say depending on the circumstances? (Along with the many other great things people have posted in response to this article.)

You might find of interest books by John Gottman on marriage like "What Makes Love Last?" in trying to improve things -- or at least understand them better to accept or reject them. A key point Gottman makes (and which the article echoes) is that contempt (e.g. "belittling") is a bad sign in marriage. Ideally something could be done to turn that around. Many books talk about the importance of communication in relationships, but there are lots of happy marriages where people don't "communicate" or even may communicate badly -- but what they do usually have is mutual respect in some form (maybe even in unexpected and quirky ways specific to the relationship).

In theory living with someone who is always right (if such were indeed the case) could be an asset (e.g. an exponentially expanding stock portfolio, always the "right" thing to say to comfort someone, always choosing the right home improvement contractor, always buying the right car for changing family needs, etc.). So why does being right have to be coupled with the problematical behavior to you that makes you unhappy? The issue of lack of compassion and kindness seems a different one than being right. As one possible explanation, you might want to look into Asperger's and women, in case a poor "theory of mind" in terms of understanding someone else's feelings and perceptions is an aspect of this (and if such were the case, there are books on making the most of that).

A link to Gottman's work, Asperger's in women, and some other resources like for coping with stress (and even depression) are in this reading list I've put together: https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-Organizations...

Books on using positive reinforcement to shape behavior as is done with dolphins (and profoundly autistic children) might also be of interest (e.g. Karen Pryor's "Don't Shoot the Dog!: The New Art of Teaching and Training"). A variation of that idea is changing your behavior when your wife does something to avoid reinforcing your wife's behaviors -- kind of like discussed in "Bullies to Buddies" by Izzy Kalman. That last may sound like "blaming the victim" but, as Izzy Kalman says, sadly and realistically "victims" are usually more motivated to change.

People generally do more of something when they feel rewarded for it and less of something when rewards are absent. The tricky thing about rewards is that rare random rewards tend to be the most reinforcing. So reacting to your wife's negative behavior some way only occasionally (say, one out of five times you react in a way she wants) can be highly reinforcing to your wife's behavior. Similarly when your wife occasionally does something that can be seen as kind or compassionate, how can that be appropriately reinforced?

Or maybe there are other underlying stresses in your wife's life unrelated to home that could be addressed somehow to reduce the problem -- like having a dog that reacts badly to certain situations and keeping them away from the situation? That at least might reduce the scale of the issue.

I once made a list of dozens of ways to shape behavior (including just accepting the problematical behavior and thinking of it as a reminder about other good things in the situation -- e.g. trying to see dirty dishes left in the sink as a reminder of overall goodness). Maybe you could make such a list to give yourself ideas? Still, while operant conditioning may help in theory smooth out some rough edges, humans are also more complex social, intellectual, and spiritual beings and there is a lot more to relationships and happiness than control (and of course being "right").

For example, Carol Dweck writes about how it is best to teach children that "the brain is like a muscle" and the more you use it, the smarter you get. She says kids who were told they were "smart" or "talented" as kids often become fearful of trying out new things where they might fail which would tarnish their self image of being "smart". Such children praised for being "smart" also often tend towards tearing others down in order to keep themselves feeling up as "image maintenance" (a possible origin of what was mentioned in the article). Thus it is better to praise effort or progress in kids (or adults). If it is the case with your wife's upbringing that she was praised as being "smart", I'm not sure what to suggest -- but maybe some reflection on that might lead to new possibilities? To create a situation where people can grow and accept imperfections as one way to help, maybe both of you trying something new together (swing dancing?) -- laughing together at your mistakes while learning?

In general, someone who thinks they are right all the time probably is avoiding personal growth by taking on new challenges. For example, one humbling experience for me was to play "World of Tanks" with my son when I was around age 50 and he was really getting into it. Even though I eventually battled my way up to tier ten American artillery through a lot of effort (and ~US$250 worth of "gold"), I had to accept was never very good at WOT relative to many other players in the game (even as for some tanks I was able to be about average). And compared to artillery, I am much worse at light tanks like my son usually plays which require quicker reactions (whereas artillery generally requires more patience and planning). One can look at the WOT stats for all players -- so it is hard to fool yourself about how good you are -- including for artillery guessing how tanks will move so you can lead your shots correctly. While there are activities in life I am good at (and tend to gravitate towards), it was a beneficial experience for me at my age to reinforce the need for continual learning. It was also a good reminder that one can be not that great at something and still have fun at it with someone you care about. That (challenging) WOT experience also helped me be a better employee with a new job going up multiple learning curves in new areas -- in terms of being more patient with my own current limits and also the current limits of others.

Even if someone was right all the time, one person can't be everywhere and do more than one or a few things at once. Thus the adage for perfectionists to contemplate of: "The woods would be pretty quiet if no bird sang there but the best." Also, if your wife is right so often because she is a perfectionist, "perfectionism" has its own personal sorrows: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfectionism_(psychology)

Ultimately, a problematical relationship doesn't necessarily mean the people in it are problems. It just means the particular match was challenging and the people involved did not have the skills or circumstance or priorities to make that particular combination of personalities work better. Sometimes skills can be upgraded or circumstances changed or priorities reevaluated. And, sadly sometimes not. The "Ann Landers question" was never "Can you find someone better?" since that is in theory always possible if unlikely, but "Are you better with or without them?" If you have already answered that question (all things considered, including kids) as "with", then hopefully some of the above could help make things a bit better.

Good luck with managing the situation as best as possible for the most happiness possible for yourself and your family.

And maybe all these ideas are wrong or inappropriate for your situation... :-)

[dontknowwhatdo]

Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply (especially @pdfernhout). There is a lot of food for thought here. You are right that it is many life experiences which has shaped my wife into the person she is now, and I am partly to blame.

We had a long chat about this today because I was losing my mind and I couldn't just take it any more. It got a bit heated sometimes but we are determined to resolve this. I'm having to face up to my own role in making her the person she is so that is hard.

But what we both realise is that we are both good people, but perhaps misguided. As life progresses, there seem to be more and more things which I regret and it is a constant battle to stay positive and look forward to the next day.

I was very ambitious when I was young. My wife allowed her career to take a backseat so she could look after the kids. I think I was so immersed in my career and trying to provide for my family that I neglected to see the stress she was under raising two kids largely by herself. I mistakenly thought that if I worked hard to provide financial security for my family it would matter a lot. I now realise that was not enough. My career has been okay-ish so far but not exactly the kind of resounding success I had dreamt of. I'm beginning to think that ambition is a curse as it is all consuming. And I also feel bad that I don't have a lot to show for all the time I spent working.

My parents weren't exactly great role models for a happy marriage. I somehow, very naively, assumed that a marriage would work if both partners had the best of intentions. Today has been exhausting but I still have hope that we will work this out.

I do believe the whole family will be better of "with" and I just need to find a way to make it work.

[ncarroll]

That all sounds very promising. Congratulations to you for having the courage to engage so honestly. That is a great and sustaining gift to a marriage.

Regret is a theme that everyone has to come to terms with at a certain point in life, don't you think? I'm finding it gets easier to have compassion with young-me, the good person who struggled and wanted and dreamed. Look how hard they worked. Look how young and earnest that person is and how little they really know and how much they honestly believe that more struggle, more desire and more dreams are going to take them where they want to go.

Today, I know better but that is only because in the past I didn't. Today, I am free to be different than I was back then -- I am even free to be different than I was yesterday. This is something important I know now.

I wish you and your wife all the goodness that comes to a marriage on the other side of your current struggle.

[dontknowwhatdo]

Thank you. In so far as my past actions have only largely affected me I am able to deal with regret stoically. It is much harder to come to terms with it when the regret is for actions which have affected others.

[ncarroll]

I see what you mean, I think. What I was trying to express was a slight change in perspective. What if you thought of past actions as having been done-by instead of having been done-to. That way you can throw them all in one pot and begin by forgiving the do-er for having done-to. It is admirable that you accept responsibility for those of your actions which negatively affected others. To put those regrets behind you, the affected person must forgive you too. And you must let them do that. I find that to be the hardest part, but you seem to be a courageous chap and I believe you can do it.

[dontknowwhatdo]

Actually, that helps I think, thank you!

[manwe150]

> and charging you a bunch of money as essentially a paid friend

A friend of mine is a therapist, and through discussions with him about his job, I'm not sure anymore this is quite accurate. A friend may have other agendas, like maintaining their own image and status, or may unintentionally gossip, or just may not be appropriate to cover some subjects with. I now view a therapist as someone I'd pay to actually be outside of my circle of friends, as someone trusted in a completely different way to discuss questions and help process. Or perhaps, metaphorically, like having CI to test and a rubber duck to debug, before you deploy something to production.

I also appreciated reading your story, your determination to work together, and the advice from this HN crowd. I hope and pray it goes better for all involved.

[pdfernhout]

You're welcome. Glad to hear you and your wife are talking about improving the situation for everyone. That shows bravery and dedication -- and also some love by both of you.

Something funny/ironic but all too often true about marriage -- and why everyone needs to work at it: "Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person" https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/29/opinion/sunday/why-you-wi... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCS6t6NUAGQ "We need to swap the Romantic view for a tragic (and at points comedic) awareness that every human will frustrate, anger, annoy, madden and disappoint us — and we will (without any malice) do the same to them. There can be no end to our sense of emptiness and incompleteness. But none of this is unusual or grounds for divorce. Choosing whom to commit ourselves to is merely a case of identifying which particular variety of suffering we would most like to sacrifice ourselves for. This philosophy of pessimism offers a solution to a lot of distress and agitation around marriage. It might sound odd, but pessimism relieves the excessive imaginative pressure that our romantic culture places upon marriage. The failure of one particular partner to save us from our grief and melancholy is not an argument against that person and no sign that a union deserves to fail or be upgraded. The person who is best suited to us is not the person who shares our every taste (he or she doesn’t exist), but the person who can negotiate differences in taste intelligently — the person who is good at disagreement. Rather than some notional idea of perfect complementarity, it is the capacity to tolerate differences with generosity that is the true marker of the “not overly wrong” person. Compatibility is an achievement of love; it must not be its precondition."

Another issue especially for raising kids is changing male/female social expectations in the last few decades. And there is also the socially isolating infrastructure we've build around ourselves (especially suburbs). That infrastructure makes it harder to be part of a face-to-face community as you have indicated has been a challenge for both yourself and your wife. See for example: "How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult" https://www.vox.com/2015/10/28/9622920/housing-adult-friends...

So even if our parents were perfect role models for a happy marriage, what worked for them may not work for us given different social and physical circumstances a generation later.

And social isolation (in a face-to-face sense) caused by many modern trends (even before the pandemic) is a key aspect of stress and depression that can make everything else harder because it puts too much pressure on a marriage to be everything where in the past there were multiple sources of social support

See for example: "Lost Connections: Uncovering the Real Causes of Depression – and the Unexpected Solutions" by Johann Hari. https://thelostconnections.com/ From the last chapter of the book: "You aren’t a machine with broken parts. You are an animal whose needs are not being met. You need to have a community. You need to have meaningful values, not the junk values you’ve been pumped full of all your life, telling you happiness comes through money and buying objects. You need to have meaningful work. You need the natural world. You need to feel you are respected. You need a secure future. You need connections to all these things. You need to release any shame you might feel for having been mistreated."

It's a long haul, but an "upward spiral" for marriage and also personal life is possible and is a worthwhile accomplishment to look back on someday. Finding just the right amount of self-reflection (not too little to be reckless, not too much to be paralyzed) can also be part of that challenge. Best of luck on your continuing journey to building a better life for yourself and everyone you care about around you.

[dontknowwhatdo]

Yes, I have felt this way too for a long time, but this articulates it well. Thank you to you and @ncaroll for persisting with this conversation. I'll make sure I educate my children on this aspect so they don't have unrealistic expectations.