[vikingcaffiene]

I own one of these as my daily driver. Its... fine.

Pros

- dead simple to upgrade the hardware. I was able to get 32GB of RAM and 3 1TB hard drives installed with no hassle or voiding of warranty.

- its a beast of a machine when you spec it out capable of any workload you throw at it.

- linux support is 1st class (obvs)

- all aluminum chassis

- the display is nice even tho its only 1080p

- the keyboard key action is nice. I have a thinkpad for work and they are similar feel.

- PopOS is amazing.

- the backlit keyboard is cool

Cons

- you cant use external monitors without the NVIDIA card enabled which requires a reboot. This is the single largest failing IMO and is more annoying than you'd think it is.

- you only get about an hour of battery life with the NVIDIA card enabled making it totally useless to keep on unless you plan on using this thing like a desktop all the time.

- its a rebranded Clevo laptop and kinda ugly. It feels cheap to me despite the aluminum chassis.

- the keyboard layout is weird. The number pad is unnecessary.

- the speakers suck. Seriously. Like my headphones lying on my desk sound better

- web cam is crappy

- the screen itself feels flimsy

- I dual boot into windows and its a second rate experience there.

[vosper]

> - you cant use external monitors without the NVIDIA card enabled which requires a reboot. This is the single largest failing IMO and is more annoying than you'd think it is.

> - you only get about an hour of battery life with the NVIDIA card enabled making it totally useless to keep on unless you plan on using this thing like a desktop all the time.

With these 2 caveats I'm surprised you still think it's fine! I guess it depends on your work situation and pain tolerance. If I had to toggle graphics cards and reboot every time I detached or re-attached my laptop from/to my desk-with-external-monitor setup... Well, I wouldn't be happy about that.

[jentist_retol]

>With these 2 caveats I'm surprised you still think it's fine!

I have a Macbook Pro for work. It is functionally a desktop that I can take home with me every day. If Apple shipped a Mac Mini with a built in 10 minute battery that auto hibernated the machine when i unplugged it, it would make sense for work to provision me one of those and save $800~

If this was my personal laptop, it'd be untenable though.

[thebruce87m]

Check out the DeskMini series. It doesn’t have the battery thing you mentioned but it’s what I wish the Mac Mini was. You can fit 4 hard drives in it! 2 PCIe and 2 2.5”.

[jentist_retol]

Well, I specifically need a computer that is easy to yank away from my desk and take home, and vice versa.

[innocenat]

It's actually more of a technical problem.

A lot of laptop wired the external output to NVIDIA card, so if you are only using Intel it won't work, as is the case here. Wiring to NVIDIA can more performant, as wiring to Intel requires copy-back from NVIDIA to Intel when NVIDIA is active (which is what is being done for the internal monitor).

As for reboot, well, I still don't know why NVIDIA doesn't have auto-switch in their Linux driver yet.

[HeadsUpHigh]

The NVIDIA issue is the biggest problem with any kind of linux laptop. It's not system76's fault and unfortunately right now there is no way around it. If you need more than intel or amd integrated you have to work with that and it's 100% NVIDIA's fault. The hardware can work the right way but they refuse to work with upstream to actually implement the capability.

[Erlich_Bachman]

There are Linux laptops with 2 video cards (one of them being NVIDIA) which has none of the issues mentioned (like for example HP zbooks). So definitely not a problem with every linux laptop.

[fomine3]

Not systen76's fault but they decide to use NVIDIA's GPU for Linux PC (or pick a base model with NVIDIA GPU from Clevo)

[pmontra]

> The number pad is unnecessary.

I'd pay a 100 Euro extra to remove the number pad and center the keyboard and the touchpad. Having to slide any laptop to the right is so annoying (the space bar must align with the center of the body, no matter what.)

[gowld]

Mandatory Numberpad in a laptop is shibboleth that shows that a laptop designer has no human factors design or testing, but chases "checklists" of features. If a laptop has a Numberpad, it's going to have a lot of other usability problems. The only thing worse is a seller who pushes a 15" laptop "because it's bigger" but puts a 768p display in it.

[efreak]

To me personally, 14" is the sweet spot for laptops. I used to want the numpad on a laptop, but more recently I've noticed that my desktop keyboard doesn't actually sit centered in front of my monitor--the right side of the keyboard is usually more or less lined up with the right side of my primary monitor, almost centering it.

[yellowapple]

I have a Dell Precision 7510 with the same sort of layout: off-center touchpad/spacebar and a numpad.

Personally, I find the numpad to be incredibly useful (and it's nice having it be there without having to lug around some extra gadget just for that purpose), and the fact that the touchpad is off-center is pretty irrelevant (as in: I don't think about it, and it doesn't really affect anything at all).

It does help, though, that even on a desktop I have a tendency to shift the keyboard somewhat to the left relative to my body (in fact, that's how I'm typing right now), so I guess I'm used to it. Still, switching between the Precision and my work ThinkPad (which lacks a numpad, and therefore doesn't need to offset anything) gives me no trouble at all.

On that note, I have exactly three requirements when shopping for a "mobile workstation" like that:

1. A numpad (even if it's one I access by holding down some Fn key to change the behavior of other keys)

2. A Trackpoint or equivalent

3. No NVIDIA GPU (ain't nobody got time for proprietary drivers)

My Precision passes all three of those with flying colors. This Oryx fails all three of those AFAICT.

[FunnyLookinHat]

Agreed - you should upvote here: https://github.com/system76/laptop-suggestions/issues/22

[jseliger]

This would be a deal breaker for me, too, particularly given that a lot of competitors don't seem to include the numpad.

[vikingcaffiene]

IMO they should remove the number pad and use the extra space to add some decent speakers on this thing.

That said, they don't have as much control over the hardware as I would hope. As I initially said, this is a rebranded clevo so they are kind of stuck with whatever they source from them.

[otter-in-a-suit]

While I do like my Gazelle a lot, to add to the GPU issues: It is capable of running 2x 3440x1440 with the internal screen on, but not if one of them is used vertically. As in, it will work, just not rotate. Once you close the lid (and disable the internal display), it suddenly works. That is something that just amazes me. Does it take that much more GPU power to run a large screen rotated 270 degrees?

[sk0g]

Maybe it's reserving resources for the total 'bounding box'?

So 1920:1080 + 3440:1440 + 3440:1440 => 8800:1440 (12,67Mp)

But 1920:1080 + 3440:1440 + 1440:3440 => 6800:3440 (23.4Mp)

EDIT: with the laptop screen off, it would just be:

3440:1440 + 1440:3440 => 4880:3440 (16.8Mp)

[the_pwner224]

> While I do like my Gazelle a lot, to add to the GPU issues

In any case, this seems to be an actual GPU issue instead of an issue caused by the laptop's design. Something that would happen with any laptop using that nvidia card.

[vikingcaffiene]

My boss is a Linux lifer. The kind of guy who compiles his own kernel and knows this stuff in and out. I mentioned that I got my first Linux machine to him and that it had an integrated GPU. First thing he said to me was "that was a mistake". From what I've seen I would agree. My machine is way glitchier when I enable the Nvidia GPU. If I had the option to run multi monitors without it on, I'd probably never use it save when gaming.

[alfiedotwtf]

Could this be fixed with xrandr?

[_bxg1]

> which requires a reboot

This is crazy. The hybrid graphics approach has been around for a decade, and I had one of the very early ones in 2010, running Windows 7, and even that one didn't require a reboot to switch. It switched automatically based on load, just like Macbook Pros do (it had a bit of a display blink when doing so, but still).

Is this some kind of limitation with Linux itself?

[uep]

> Is this some kind of limitation with Linux itself?

Definitely not. I don't know the details of the grandparent's hardware, it's possible that there are some limitations with specific NVIDIA hardware, given the fact that NVIDIA does not have open source drivers.

I have had working hybrid NVIDIA graphics on my work laptop for eight years now I think. Basic functionality such as using one of the display outputs requires the dedicated GPU. The open source tool for controlling NVIDIA hybrid graphics is Bumblebee. NVIDIA's proprietary technology is called Optimus.

[nybble41]

I'm using a similar System76 laptop (Gazelle 14") with hybrid Intel/NVIDIA graphics—though running Debian, not Pop_OS!—and at least hardware acceleration works fine under both GPUs without rebooting. I'm using the primus-vk-nvidia package and a simple "pvkrun" prefix when starting a command will run it using the NVIDIA graphics card rather than the default Intel card. This passes the rendered framebuffer from the NVIDIA GPU to the Intel GPU via the Vulkan APIs, which are better suited for handling dissimilar GPUs simultaneously then the older OpenGL-based PRIMUS implementation.

As for the external displays, HDMI out seems to work on my system through the default Intel controller. I haven't tried the DisplayPort or USB-C interfaces. I do know that the proprietary NVIDIA drivers are incapable of efficiently scanning out graphics rendered on the Intel GPU using the standard Linux interface (xrandr --setprovideroutputsource). The NVIDIA driver can use outputs provided by other GPUs but won't provide its own outputs for other GPUs to use. All the guides I've seen say that if you want to output on the ports controlled by the NVIDIA card you have to make that your primary GPU, which of course impacts battery life.

Technically there are open-source drivers for NVIDIA cards (nouveau). And they do support the standard interfaces to let other GPUs control the outputs. They just aren't on par with the proprietary drivers performance-wise, and normally performance is the reason you want hybrid graphics in the first place. However, if you just to use the extra video output ports while rendering on the integrated GPU then the nouveau driver is a viable option.

[glglwty]

> they do support the standard interfaces to let other GPUs control the outputs. They just aren't on par with the proprietary drivers performance-wise

Some softwares don't work on nouveau. For example, chromium GPU acceleration and QtWebEngine

[nybble41]

That's fine. Those apps would be rendering with the integrated GPU (probably Intel). The nouveau driver would only be responsible for driving the outputs by scanning out from the buffers the other GPU rendered.

[innocenat]

> The open source tool for controlling NVIDIA hybrid graphics is Bumblebee.

Setting up Bumblebee can be painful. And not guarantee to last.

I have a nice bumblebee setup with CUDA working, but when I updated the HWE (I think I go from zero HWE to 18.04.4 in one go), bumblebee broke down completely. And I stopped caring and just use prime-select.

[HeadsUpHigh]

>Is this some kind of limitation with Linux itself?

No it's Nvidia refusing to work with upstream to implement optimus properly( and wayland and drivers in general). They are very hostile to open source.

[the_pwner224]

Nope, it's based on the hardware design on how the GPU is connected. The new method, which as you mention has been ubiquituous for many years, works pretty well on Linux. Not sure why they're using the old method.

[bscphil]

> the display is nice even tho its only 1080p

What's worse, they have zero information about the quality of this screen. It's almost certainly not HDR. Does it even cover the sRGB gamut? Plus there's no option for a glossy coating, no information about viewable angles, no option for 4K, etc etc.

One of the primary ways I judge the quality of a laptop offering is by the quality of the screen the manufacturer is willing to put in it. If they're not skimping on the screen, it's a good sign for the quality of the rest of the product. And every single Linux-first manufacturer has fallen down here. The general expectation from them seems to be that you'll pay mid-level Mac prices for mid level Dell-quality products, in exchange for first class Linux support.

It's really too bad, because I'd pay the premium for a high quality build with great components that would last me a decade. Not so much for this, though.

[vikingcaffiene]

If I am not mistaken, Linux is known to problems with higher rez screens. Honestly this is the best looking laptop screen I've ever used. My previous machine was a retina screen too. Its bright and crisp and easy on my eyes. I have some complaints about this machine but the display quality is not one of them.

[OminousWeapons]

> its a rebranded Clevo laptop and kinda ugly. It feels cheap to me despite the aluminum chassis.

I've been interested in buying a System76 unit for awhile (specifically a Darter Pro), but I've always been concerned about their sourcing from Clevo. I previously owned a Sager which was also sourcing from Clevo at the time and the build quality was absolutely horrible.

Can anyone who has used a System76 for awhile chime in regarding the longevity of the hardware?

[shmageggy]

I had a Galago from 2013 or so. It was very cheaply built.

It shipped with an infamously bad keyboard that was basically unusable due to unregistered key strokes. They eventually replaced them, but they still weren't perfect.

The screen was very flimsy and pressed into the keys when it was closed and any sort of pressure was applied (for instance being in a bag), leaving an unsightly mark across the middle. I ended up sticking felt pads around the bezel to create some room to accommodate the flexing.

Once a screw came loose in the screen hinge, preventing it from opening. I had to send it back for repair.

On the base where my wrists laid while typing, the finish wore down through the paint leaving two big brown oval marks.

The battery life eventually went to nearly zero after a few years.

The battery eventually started swelling and, before I realized what was happening, pushed up the trackpad actually fully breaking it away from the surface.

All in all, it was super flimsy. It got me through grad school, but almost no longer and with zero resale value afterwards, and even then I never felt completely confident in it during that time.

[dsr_]

I have a System76 that lasted 9 years. It's just too slow now, and I didn't bother replacing the battery so it doesn't hold a charge.

I have a System76 that is still going in year 6. No issues, but I don't use the battery in that one much -- it sits on top of a stereo serving as a music source, mostly.

[bjoli]

I have an unbranded clevo from 2013. About 2 years ago I accidentally shorted a thing powered on usb, so all power delivery over usb was fried (as in: most thumb drives work. External HDDs don't. The computer still works.

Apart from the keyboard more or less falling apart at this point and that the touchpad is megashit by today's standards I have been a happy user. It has survived a lot more beating than my wife's MacBook which seems to break when you look at it wrong.

This year I demoted it to be a home server with built in power redundancy (and screen and keyboard). I am very satisfied with that purchase.

[epanchin]

Could you get a dock with an external graphics card?

[chrisseaton]

> the display is nice even tho its only 1080p

This is absolutely crazy why are we still putting screens into laptops that would be disappointing on a CRT from the year 2000? How can you work with just a thousand lines?

[thekyle]

Not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but, I think 1080p is a totally reasonable resolution for a laptop. I have a 4k display on my laptop and it's way overkill. I've had it for a few years now and regret spending the extra money on it.

I'd rather spend less money getting the 1080p option and have longer battery life.

[chrisseaton]

Do you not find text (which is mostly what I use my display for as a programmer and author) is extremely blocky and blurry at this resolution?

[thesandlord]

A 27 inch 1440p monitor has a PPI of ~108. These are what all high end consumer displays like the Apple Cinema displays, Dell U2711s, etc had before they all moved to 4K.

A 27 inch at 4k has a PPI of ~163. This is basically industry standard for high end consumer displays. Sure there are a few 5K screens, but they are not common. I've also seen a lot of folks use 32 inch 4k displays which would have even lower PPI.

A 15 inch 1080p screen has a PPI of ~146. So not as good as a 4K screen at 27 inches, but still MUCH higher than the 1440p monitors.

[ryanlol]

> These are what all high end consumer displays like the Apple Cinema displays

Yes, in 2004. That was 16 years ago, a lifetime for some HN users.

[thesandlord]

Sure, but they only discontinued the form factor in 2016!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Thunderbolt_Display

[beckingz]

Nope. 1080p has enough pixels to display most text nicely.

[rpdillon]

No. I specifically buy laptops with 1080p displays and avoid hidpi if possible due to compatibility with various apps, as well as power consumption/battery life issues. I have a hidpi MacBook for work and a 1080p System76 machine for personal use, and I vastly prefer the System76 machine.

I accept that others see it differently, but I have this lingering suspicion that the whole hidpi movement is mostly marketing. Most folks simply don't need it, or even really benefit from it, as far as I've been able to tell.

[HeadsUpHigh]

That's all nice but from my experience when you go outside the common 1080p 60fps stuff starts to break in funny ways even on windows. Heck, I have a 1080p 144hz display and while scrolling on most stuff is super smooth and 100% worth the premium( or the sacrifice from going with a TN panel), it's also really blocky in some apps.

[SahAssar]

I use a 13" 4k at native resolution (no upscaling/doubling) as my daily driver. I get that you don't see the use for more than 1080 at 15", but for some of us the choice to have more is needed.

[gowld]

>1080p was quite rate in the CRT era.

https://www.lifewire.com/crt-computer-monitor-buyers-guide-8...

[freehunter]

I have no idea what makes chrisseaton so passionate and adamant that CRTs commonly had resolutions higher than common LCD panels today but I had basically this exact same argument several days ago. I actually remembered it because they wrote almost the same comment word for word. For some reason they are convinced that all old CRTs were commonly 2k and 4K resolutions and the existence of cheap 4k LCD panels doesn’t excuse the fact that it’s still possible to buy a 1080p screen (which is I guess a bad thing?)

Some people have unusual passions I guess.

[bashinator]

1600x1200 is only about 10% fewer pixels than 1920x1082. The former was quite common twenty years ago.

[wmf]

1600x1200 was for a 20" CRT; why does he want the same or higher resolution on a 15" laptop?

[chrismorgan]

At a given resolution, CRTs pixels made for much more readable text (provided the refresh rate was sufficient; I found 60Hz nigh unbearable, 90Hz tolerable, and 120Hz preferable). LCD pixels are much more precise, which means that they appear much less smooth, so that you want a much higher resolution. CRT pixels were fundamentally imprecise, and that was actually really good for text. It’s about a decade since I last used a CRT, but my feeling is that text would look better (be smoother and more legible) on your 1600×1200 20″ CRT (100dpi) than on a 1920×1080 15″ LCD (141dpi). I think that the last CRT I dealt with much felt fairly similar in legibility &c. to my first laptop, and those were 1280×1024 19″ at 120Hz (~86dpi) and 1680×1050 15.4″ (~128dpi).

[chrisseaton]

That exact resolution? Yes I guess so.

But XGA (768 lines) was the most common in 2002 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_resolution#2000s.

WUXGA (1200 lines) was also very common.

Why haven't we progressed more than a couple hundred lines in 20 years? What's going on?

[boudin]

Because it's not that needed? I'm fine with 1080p on my laptop, i don't feel the need for 4k.

[slantyyz]

> How can you work with just a thousand lines?

The answer is super simple. Because I'm not you. Which means I'm not sensitized to the same things that you are sensitized to.

For example, I can't stand working in a room that is not brightly lit, which isn't a problem at all for most other people.