[Artlav]

Even more baffling is that i can't just install a program i wrote myself on a device i own without having to get it signed and have that signature renewed once a week.

Like, what's the point of having a non-programmable computer?

[threeseed]

What's the point of having a non-programmable dishwasher ?

And the answer is because people don't think of phones, dishwashers, TVs, cars, gaming consoles etc as computers even though by any technical definition they are.

[chooseaname]

iPhones are designed to run apps. They are general purpose computers even if their name says otherwise.

Comparing them to dishwashers is ... well you can't.

[dahfizz]

You're being dishonest.

A phone is not a dishwasher, a phone is a phone. We have examples of modern phones and computers that allow users to install their own programs. It's only Apple that refuses to treat its customer's with respect.

[chipotle_coyote]

With all respect, I think "dishonest" is a mean-spirited choice of words.

Sure, we have examples of computers that allow users to install their own programs, but we also have examples of computers that by and large do not: video game consoles. It's been clear from very early on that Apple thinks of iOS devices as "application consoles."

Furthermore, while a phone clearly isn't a dishwasher, what about a smart TV? The LG OLED that I have sitting in the living room proudly proclaims it runs WebOS when I turn it on, but as far as I know, there's no way for me to put my own software onto it even though it would surely be capable of running it. I'm sure there are people who are upset about that at least in principle, but in practice most of us don't really care too much about that. The comment sections of reviews of LG TVs are not filled up with angry cries about how LG refuses to respect its customers.

There are arguments about whether Apple should treat iOS devices as equivalent to consoles. For instance, I don't think it's intrinsically bad to have started that way but as time goes on there are purely practical arguments against continuing it -- and it seems actively detrimental to where Apple wants to take the iPad. But I don't think "this shows Apple doesn't respect its customers" is a particularly useful takeaway here; the vast majority of customers really aren't jonesing to sideload apps.

Last but not least, while this whole "the platform must be open" is a favorite hobby horse of HN -- and, to repeat, I am in favor of letting people sideload iOS apps! -- it's slightly orthogonal to the beef Hey has with Apple here. Yes, if Hey could sideload their app that would get around the problem, but the real question is whether Apple is being fair by saying that Hey can't be in the store unless they allow their subscription to be bought with an in-app purchase. This is demonstrably not a standard they've applied universally, and it's dubious whether it's a standard they should have at all.

[Artlav]

> video game consoles

Huh? I used to make DIY games as late as early 00s, for GBA, Sega Dreamcast and PS1.

Is that no longer possible with modern consoles?

[rnotaro]

For Microsoft you can't do it with the Xbox 360.

All Xbox One can acts as a DevKit but you will need to pay a 20USD ont-time fee to get a developper account that will allow you to use their SDK and various tools.

[abiogenesis]

You are repeating the same mistake the OP calls as being "dishonest" (although I agree that this is a bit overreacting). Why do you keep comparing phones with other appliances such as dishwashers, video game consoles, or smart TVs?

As the grandparent comment clearly says: We have examples of modern phones [...] that allow users to install their own programs.

[chipotle_coyote]

I explained why I was making the comparison in the post: Apple clearly (at least to me) conceived of iOS devices as application consoles, analogous to game consoles. If you don't think they should have conceived of them that way -- and I'm pretty sure I also addressed that -- that's fine, but I genuinely don't think my comparison of iOS devices to game consoles is dishonest. I think it's literally the way Apple intended them to operate. You may think that they shouldn't intend them to operate that way, and I might agree, but that's really a different argument.

[matwood]

> Why do you keep comparing phones with other appliances such as dishwashers, video game consoles, or smart TVs?

For many (most?) people, their phone is just another appliance.

[abiogenesis]

The point is, you should compare phones to other brands of phones. It does not make sense to compare an appliance to just another appliance.

Would you be happy if your coffee machine boiled the water but did not actually make coffee, because that's what electric kettles do? It's just another appliance; but it's not an electric kettle, it's supposed to make coffee.

[vosper]

> You're being dishonest.

I don't think it's fair to say that the user you replied to is lying intentionally. There's nothing in what they said to suggest that. You may not agree with them, that doesn't make them a liar.

[dahfizz]

Maybe "intellectually dishonest" would be a better term. I do think they are being intentionally misleading by putting iPhones in the same category as washing machines, while conveniently forgetting that Android and Windows exists.

[rhamzeh]

A better analogy would be a dishwasher from BigCorp that only allows you to wash dishes approved by BigCorp.

[LadyCailin]

It’s a conspiracy from Big Dishwasher to take over the entire dishware industry.

[blondin]

oh wow, i am just getting my feet wet so thanks for saying. i am basically just ignoring iOS for now and am able to run my unsigned apps fine on the mac without me having to open a developer account.

that's such a let-down!

i was planning to re-write the reminder app on my phone for myself because i have a unique way of using it and i thought it would be a nice app for just me...

[m463]

> run my unsigned apps fine

You probably agreed to some terms and conditions to use xcode however.

I don't know if you can "route around this" with something like brew and add a dev toolchain without xcode.

[kps]

> i can't just install a program i wrote myself on a device i own without having to get it signed

Same with a Firefox extension.

(I'm not defending Apple. Apple is wrong and Mozilla is wrong.)

[BenjiWiebe]

There must be some way to do it. I'm running an extension I wrote on my Firefox. Up to date and all. The extension is on the "store", but the edition I have installed isn't, and it's definitely not signed.

[dahfizz]

Not really the same thing, for two big of reasons:

1) Getting your Mozilla extension signed is free, but you have to pay just to develop an iOS app

2) You can install unsigned extensions on nightly and developer builds, which seems perfectly reasonable. Stable and secure for the general public, bleeding edge + customizable for those who care.

[kps]

> You can install unsigned extensions on nightly and developer builds

Have you tried using one? You get daily nag popups to install today's developer build. I'm trying not to switch to Chrome entirely, but every Firefox release makes it harder.

[dahfizz]

`sudo dnf update` is the first thing I do every morning, so that's never been a problem for me. That does seem annoying, though. Sometimes Mozilla is its own worst enemy...

[RKearney]

> but you have to pay just to develop an iOS app

Apple changed this a year or two ago. You do not have to pay to test apps on your own phone.

[wayneftw]

Mozilla will not let you publish an extension that they disagree with politically.

[dahfizz]

> i can't just install a program _i wrote myself_ on a _device i own_ without having to get it signed

You're moving the goalposts.

But, because of the fact that you can run unsigned extensions on nightly builds, there is nothing stopping you from distributing your unsigned extension through github or bittorrent or anything else.

[wayneftw]

No, you moved the goalposts.

The original person you replied to said "Same with a Firefox extension." not a "nightly or developer build of Firefox extension".

If you can't get an extension on a regular build of Firefox, you might as well not be able to do it because for most users installing nightly or dev is a big problem.

[hyakosm]

Firefox is free, it's technically possible to build a version with different rules about extensions.