[LatteLazy]

This is pretty standard in many countries and industries.

Really, we need a law that turns it into a loan automatically with reasonable terms at the end of employment. But other than that, this is no different to any other student loan. Boomers killed free education, so now everyone pays one way or another.

[a3n]

How did I kill free education?

[C1sc0cat]

Actually not most countries strictly limit /regulate this sort behaviour and if your made redundant I suspect that the employer would not be able to recover anything.

Unfortunately employment practices in that part of the world are Horrific - its just normally poor navvies employed on building sites get the worst of it - see some of the coverage of the word cup construction in Quatar

[LatteLazy]

It's not illegal in the UK either I'm afraid. In fact, it's standard.

Im not saying this is nice or positive. Just that it's totally legal and pretty standard.

I know because my first proper employer did NOT put this clause in my contract. Then they tried to introduce it for me and others after adding it for new employees. So I (we, there were 5 of us) actually sought legal advice.

The lawyer was surprised it wasn't in the original contract (and it's been in all the employment contracts I've signed since). Since it wasn't there, they couldn't enforce it or make us sign it. So we were lucky.

Its a hard thing to decide because the alternative is banning this sort of program. Then the only people who get to be pilots are the ones with 130k to spare...

[iguy]

An important distinction here is surely between voluntary departure, and being laid off. What did the clause you mention cover?

Seems like a fair concern for a company not to have their freshly trained employees get poached by the competition the day they start being useful. (Although IMO it would be better to structure it as a lower salary while in training and a bonus which vests in a year.) But people they have decide to fire is a different matter.

[LatteLazy]

Morally there is a difference but legally there isn't. In the uk, the clauses I have seen all say (some variation of) "leave our employ for any reason".

I can understand why. If you don't have to pay 130k back as long as you get fired, that's a huge incentive to get yourself fired right?

I think it's a dumb problem caused by governments failing to fund training/education. But as long as that's the case, people need to read their contracts and only sign things they understand...

[iguy]

OK, thanks. I am surprised though. Doesn't lots of employment law make a distinction between "fired with cause" and "downsizing"?

Lots of questions, but also: Can they actually collect this?

I guess my proposal of "half pay while training & a post-dated check" probably lines up with "leave our employ for any reason".

[LatteLazy]

I’m honestly not sure about collecting these debts.

In the UK they could technically be discharged through bankruptcy. But that takes a long time and ruins your life (you’ll be barred from a lot of carriers and lose basically everything).

In Qatar, it’s more complex. They use a weird mix of sharia and more western law. I’m not convinced these loans would be sharia compliant so maybe there is some wriggle room there? On the other hand suing the state airline in an absolute monarchy with no judicial independence may be difficult. I don’t think Qatar has a concept of bankruptcy (as all credit should be secured and limited against collateral). So they’re between a rock and a hard place.

Maybe they can flee and find a country (countries) that won’t enforce a Qatar civil judgement? But I think the west generally will so not sure where that leaves...

[arethuza]

A manager at a previous employer thought it would be a good idea to get people to sign a letter saying we'd be liable for training costs if we left within X months of taking the training.

Like most people I simply ignored the request!

Most of the training I was getting was hyper specific to particular financial/ERP applications that if I left I'd be running away from ever seeing those applications again....

[chrisseaton]

Is it not still the case that that almost all commercial pilots come from people leaving the military or has that changed?

[LatteLazy]

I don't know to be honest. I don't think so, as there are really not many military pilots compared to commercial? But I'm no expert.

Quickie edit...

Google says the RAF has 1830 pilots and the Navy about 200 more but the UK has over 10,000 commercial pilots. So I guess at least half the commercial pilots trained outside the military. So they're either self funding or getting these employer funded loans?

[yardie]

That hasn’t been the case in decades. When TWA was expanding they had a large pool of WWII pilots. Training for military pilots is very expensive as well. They won’t want to waste it on someone who’s only sticking around 5 years.

[C1sc0cat]

I did say "strictly limit /regulate" and just because some one puts something in a contract doesn't make it enforceable (justiciable)

And in the UK you would NOT want to cross BALPA (pilots union) if an airline tried this.

[gambiting]

>>Boomers killed free education, so now everyone pays one way or another.

This anglo-centric assumption is killing me on HN. My "boomer" parents were deep in a communist state at my age and they could only dream of the quality of life that we enjoy today. But hey they are "boomers" so fuck them, right?

[LatteLazy]

They weren't boomers. Boomers is a specifically western phenomenon. In China for instance, the same generation were basically the oppose: they were given nothing and built a much better standard of living for their children.

Sorry to be anglocentric. I try not to be, but it slips through sometimes. :)

[gspr]

> They weren't boomers. Boomers is a specifically western phenomenon.

Your original comment is still super US-centric. I live in a western European country. In my country, the "boomer" generation and their parents built the welfare state that gave me free education from kindergarten to PhD. I'm forever grateful for that, and the social safety nets they put in place.

[LatteLazy]

I live in the UK. We have a higher density of boomers and they’re more boomerish than the US. Like all social categories, ymmv!

Out of interest, what country do you live in? I thought all of Western Europe had welfare etc before the boomers took over?