[DictumMortuum]

Born and raised Athenian here, oldest capital of Europe.

Downtown Athens and most of the suburbs are filled with ancient and byzantine ruins, despite the damage that wars, christians and muslims did.

I've watched plays in millennia old theaters. This is damn powerful.

[notahacker]

Even in Athens I can imagine an ancient inhabitant being lost and confused amongst a grid of midrise concrete buildings. Then they'd turn a corner and catch a glimpse of the Acropolis...

London, sort of continuously inhabited since Roman times, wouldn't pass the test even if an ancient Roman inhabitant was standing on a street following the line of a Roman road and looking direct at the foundations of the London wall. Even the river course would be unfamiliar.

[y-c-o-m-b]

Slightly off topic, but playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey brought out an infatuation with Greece within me. I am truly envious of your Greek heritage and that you get to enjoy such a rich history, a relatively secular society, and gorgeous scenic areas. I am actually Persian and although we also have a rich history and scenic lands, I find Greece and Greek history far more appealing. Getting to explore many facets of ancient Greece in Assassin's Creed Odyssey has been an absolute treat.

EDIT: a word

[elorant]

Well heritage is a double edged sword. From one hand you do feel proud and blessed to live in a place so rich in history because it's everywhere around you. But in the same time it's kind of a burden that drags society in worshiping the past. A lot of fellow Greeks live on the premises that because our past was so glorious everyone else is dipshit and we shouldn't even bother finding our place in the modern world.

[carlob]

Well said! I would also like to add that history is also (in part) a construct of the times you live in. Greece post-1830 looks back at the ancient times while all but forgetting the centuries of Ottoman rule that also shaped the current culture (especially cuisine). Bulgaria, while having a similar history (the Thracians instead of the Greek and Macedonians, also Orthodox, also Ottoman) prefer to trace their mythical history back to the Bulgarians of the Volga rather than calling ancient Thracia the cradle of Western Civilization.

I'm from Italy and here we are taught a linear history shooting like a bullet from the Romans to Renaissance (mostly glossing over the Middle Ages), and that has important political consequences in what it means to identify as an Italian.

In other words one can say that history, as it is taught in school, is instrumental in constructing a national identity and as such it is wielded as a tool by the political and cultural élites.

[Bayart]

>I'm from Italy and here we are taught a linear history shooting like a bullet from the Romans to Renaissance (mostly glossing over the Middle Ages), and that has important political consequences in what it means to identify as an Italian.

As a Frenchman I have always found Italians identifying so strongly to Romans a bit creepy. I've had very heated conversations with people who wouldn't balk from the notion that « they » had conquered Europe at a time « we » lived in trees (notwithstanding Gaul having cities upwards of 40k inhabitants). Italy hasn't been Roman for much longer than Spain or Gaul and the entire peninsula nearly had a civilization « hard reset » with the utter ravage of the Gothic wars and Justinian's plague.

Things might have been simpler if we had kept the medieval demonym and referred to Italians as « Lombards ».

[pmontra]

Yep, you're right. We were taught tiny details of the rise of Rome, when it was a little village, and Julius Caesar was a hero. Then I grew up and realized that nowadays he would be a war criminal and at best one of those guys longing to be president for life. For sure the ancestors of the people living in today France were not happy to have his armies in their country back then.

[carlob]

And most French I know have this weird notion they somehow won WWII because the true French government was in London ;)

[S4M]

I am French and I don't think that at all, nor do I know anybody who thinks like that.

[ben_w]

Mmm. I’ve only seen one country that doesn’t collectively see its history with gold-tinted glasses — yet even here, there are people like my landlord, who has told me he didn’t understand why the DDR fell despite being a student in it.

[AftHurrahWinch]

Having conversations with people in South Africa, Ghana, and Rwanda about their country's history felt a lot like talking to Germans.

Lots of nuance.

[klyrs]

Kinda depends who you talk to. For many americans, the slave trade and genocide of indigenous peoples are key, and embarrassing, chapters of our history. American children are taught very differently, largely according to the ruling party in their state.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/01/12/us/texas-vs-c...

[DictumMortuum]

Don't feel envy about such generalities. To give you an example, my hero and fellow Athenian, Socrates, was killed by his own people.

DNA doesn't matter. How you choose to live your life does.

[throwaway8879]

Nitpick. Socrates was given a choice. His decision to kill himself was his own. I'd probably do the same. He was 70+ anyway. A lifetime of annoying dialectic tends to make lots of enemies quickly.

[DictumMortuum]

You are right. My point was that there is nothing magical in Greek ancestry, but a mixture of great and stupid individuals, as in all societies.

[saagarjha]

What was the choice? Wasn’t he sentenced to death?

[namenotrequired]

They sentenced him to death to force him to leave the city. No one expected him to decide to die rather than leave.

[saagarjha]

I thought they literally sentenced him to death, and he had the opportunity to escape but refused to take it?

[hn_throwaway_99]

I've always wondered how super old cities like Athens and Rome deal with infrastructure. I mean, if you need to install new sewer or cabling systems underground you're dealing with literally thousands of years of stuff under the city, and I'm guessing there is no good documentation for what's there. How do civil engineers know where it's safe to build?

[DictumMortuum]

It's typical to see displays such as [1], even in the basements of cafeterias in Athens. This one is from the Syntagma metro station.

By the way, in settlements were people are living for thousands of years, they usually build on top of what there was already there.

[1] - https://cdn.theculturetrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/10...

[refurb]

That's a great example.

There is a museum near the Acropolis where they put a glass floor in and you can look down and see the ruins they've uncovered.

It's really remarkable. Buildings from the past were demolished and new buildings were built on top. It's interesting to look around and realize that you're walking over 30 ft worth of ruins everywhere.

[jgwil2]

They have to have archaeologists dig it all up first.