[sweden]

Those are some very empty counter arguments but I will try to answer them anyway.

EDA tools are expensive, yes. But you are not just paying for the tools, you are paying for all the engineering support being those tools. Bugs and problems happen in any development tool and those companies are ready to pick up the phone at any time of the day to help you with anything you might face, whether it is a problem with their tool or a problem with their setup, to the point that they can deploy a new version of their software on the spot just for you.

And they have actual engineers on the other end of the line who know the product like the palm of their hand.

While this might sound superficial, it is extremely important when you are racing towards a $100M dollar deadline for your project.

[rcxdude]

The level of quirkiness and bugginess in the tools is on another level to most software tools. You shouldn't need access to the engineers who built it in order to make it work, this basically increases costs and barrier to entry massively.

[ip26]

Many of the tools are bleeding edge, developing new features to support a new process node at the same time as the new process node is being developed.

[gchadwick]

Certainly on the simulator/synthesis side you can still encounter straight-forward bugs in SystemVerilog features that were standardized over a decade ago (or find they're not implemented at all) or even simple parsing bugs (the kinds of bugs that would be trivial to find with some decent randomised testing of the parser).

Things being bleeding edge and fast evolving in certainly true for some EDA tools or parts of them but there's lots of more bread and butter stuff that never feels quite right.

[rcxdude]

This doesn't seem relevant to most of the tooling, which is not bleeding edge, and should be mature.

[jfkebwjsbx]

That is no excuse. A lot of software out there is bleeding edge, yet costumers do not tolerate crashes.

[api]

Sure, that's why important software never crashes. /sarcasm

[jfkebwjsbx]

And... it does not. Most crashes in actually important software are due to hardware/memory errors, rather than the software itself.

Of course, I hope you are not referring to Windows or any day-to-day software by "important".

[coribuci]

> The level of quirkiness and bugginess in the tools is on another level to most software tools. You shouldn't need access to the engineers who built it in order to make it work, this basically increases costs and barrier to entry massively.

I do not know what SW tools are you using but i'm still looking forward for a SW tool that doesn"t suck.

[rcxdude]

Oh yeah, software tooling also sucks, I'm just saying it's on average still better than the best of any hardware tooling I've ever had to use.

[user5994461]

I believe software developers are split between IntelliJ, Eclipse, Visual Studio and VS Code. They do work very well compared to what I've seen in the embedded world.

Ignoring text editors here, because text editors are not programming environments (no debugger, no compiler, no source control, etc...)

[jdc]

> EDA tools are expensive, yes. But you are not just paying for the tools, you are paying for all the engineering support being those tools.

So I can buy the tool without the support contract?

> Bugs and problems happen in any development tool [...]

So it's automatically a wash? Why bother trying to improve things if there will always be bugs, right?

> [...] whether it is a problem with their tool or a problem with their setup, to the point that they can deploy a new version of their software on the spot just for you.

I'm not impressed. This is a kludge.

> And they have actual engineers on the other end of the line who know the product like the palm of their hand.

Okay, that actually sounds pretty nice.

[sweden]

> So I can buy the tool without the support contract?

Probably not but it's not something you would like to. Cutting corners is a really bad idea when it comes to hardware development because once it is out there, there is not going back.

Having access to a professional engineering work force that knows how the tool works and know it will ready and interpret the Verilog and process it can make a difference between a 5 minutes delay and 2 week delay in the project.

> So it's automatically a wash? Why bother trying to improve things if there will always be bugs, right?

You are distorting my words. I'm not saying that we should be complacent and just accept incompetence.

[buckminster]

>> [...] whether it is a problem with their tool or a problem with their setup, to the point that they can deploy a new version of their software on the spot just for you.

> I'm not impressed. This is a kludge.

So how would you handle it? Tell the customer you'd love to fix their problem but they have to wait for the next formal release?

[rsynnott]

I mean, this sounds a lot like software 20 years ago.

You can still get proper support for, say, IntelliJ if you want it, but tools and ecosystem have improved so much that it’s just not as important as it used to be.

To be clear, I’m not claiming that hardware development is the same as software development. It’s not. It has different problems. But the tooling _does_ seem well behind.

[ardy42]

> You can still get proper support for, say, IntelliJ if you want it, but tools and ecosystem have improved so much that it’s just not as important as it used to be.

How many people are doing hardware verification work vs. cranking out webapps with IntelliJ?

JetBrains can invest a lot in software ergonomics because they're basically selling mass-market software. If you have sophisticated but niche software, your probably going to invest your engineering effort into the it's capability rather than its ergonomics.

[rsynnott]

I mean, to take one example of a company in the space: Xilinx has operating income of about 750mn per year. Jetbrains has operating income of about 80mn per year on revenues of 250mn.

Given that I’d suggest that the reason that Xilinx’s development products have such a poor user experience vs IntelliJ is NOT that Xilinx is impoverished, but rather that the market has extremely low expectations so they don’t feel the need to spend on fixing them.

This isn’t a problem unique to hardware-land; lots of verticals have incumbents who produce low quality products on large profits because, frankly, the competition is just as bad and there’s a high barrier to entry. I’m not sure what would fix this for hardware-land, though. Possibly more pressure from open source; that’s largely what did it for software development (though even before that, companies like Borland put more than the minimum effort in).

[tails4e]

Xilinx are not just writing software, they also must use R&D to develop the FPGA hardware, dev kits, IP, etc, so it's a very different scale to JetBrains' focus. Also in terms of Sofware, the really challenging aspects are under the hood, the place and route algorithms, the static timing engine, the system verilog simulator (which is itself a huge undertaking), the hardware debug cores, the HLS SW that compiles C to accelerated HW, then SDK for embedded processors, oh.. And of course... Finally the GUI/IDE. With all that's going on underneath, Vivado does a decent job of presenting it all in a logical way. I'm blown away that I can see a timing failure on any of a million nets and in a click cros probe it to a line of verilog.

As for open source, SystemVerilog is an open standard, yet can you show me an open source simulator that competes with the free one that comes with Vivado?

[user5994461]

On the one hand Vivado is not entirely terrible considering that it can get some work done, but on the other hand it's beyond me why it's lacking the most basic needs of software development.

Zero support for source control? SoC have no examples, why can't they systematically provide an hello world example (blink a LED) with their development boards? The IDE itself has close to zero doc and there is no help on the internet, it takes 3 freaking days for an experienced developer to figure out how to create a project.

[tails4e]

Theres a load of documentation, videos and examples, both on github maintained by xilinx as well as on xilinx.com. For example: https://www.xilinx.com/support/university.html and linked from there is a complete course in getting started with all materials, slides and docs : https://www.xilinx.com/support/university/vivado/vivado-work...