[brudgers]

From what I understand about the German education system , significant features of US education are missing [I cannot speak to the others] - primarily a pursuit of universal access to higher education and the opportunity for second, third, and fourth chances at a college degree.

To put access in perspective, University of Phoenix has 400,000 students - the entire German higher education system issues about the same number of Abitur each year. In the US more than half the population [55%] has some college compared to 22% of the German population with post-secondary education. The percentage of the US population with Masters and PHD is almost as large [10.5%] as the percentage of German population with any type of University degree [13.6%].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_U...

http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/In...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitur

[ceejayoz]

Is it possible that German businesses do the smart thing and don't require a bachelor's degree for basic data entry and other similar tasks?

I have a hard time believing 55% of the jobs in the US require a college education to perform.

[apl]

Yes, that is correct. Obviously, with rising numbers of University graduates the situation is beginning to change -- albeit at a much slower rate than in the US. There are plenty professions that do not require a BA.[2]

I agree with the sentiment, by the way. University access in this sense[1] isn't intrinsically desirable. Quite the opposite. For a large chunk of professions, higher education is in fact a waste of money and incurs significant opportunity/real costs for the student. (Data entry with 150,000$ debt in addition to losing out on a similar amount of salary?) It's nice that a degree mill like the University of Phoenix has more students than half of Germany, but I don't understand why that's necessarily a strength. A significant proportion (> 60%?) will regret that degree.

[1] There are two interpretations of the notion. First, you want everybody's chances to be equal. That is, no racial or social discrimination when it comes to HE access. Second, you want everybody to go to university. That seems highly, highly inefficient. (Not all people require HE, even if you consider education an intrinsic good. Non-broken high school education help.) [2] It's important to acknowledge the cultural differences here: BAs (i.e., limited primary college degrees) were introduced very recently. Up until 2004-2005, you'd always graduate with Diplom or Magister which go a lot further than US BAs.

[brudgers]

Some people believe education has intrinsic value.

[yummyfajitas]

Some people believe an XBox has intrinsic value.

And much like the people who believe education has intrinsic value, they should pay for it themselves.

[brudgers]

In the US, most people pay for education with private money.

[bugsy]

Sure a real liberal arts education where you study the classics has intrinsic value.

Job tech training not so much.

[ceejayoz]

Certainly, but I very much doubt 55% of America is paying tens of thousands of dollars for that reason.

[Jd]

First you are comparing the percentage of the US population over 25 with the German population 15 and over.

Also, I'm not sure how you came up with the 13.6% or the 22% figure.

[brudgers]

13.6% = Degrees of applied Sciences + University Degrees + Doctoral Degrees

22% = 100% - [No Vocational Qualification Obtained + Apprenticeship Qualification]

12% of the German population is between 15 and 25 which as you point out would raise the rate of German degrees - but not significantly close the gap. http://www.destatis.de/bevoelkerungspyramide/

[rue]

You should be using the combined number for Germany: 35% or so have a post-secondary degree. (If I'm reading the statistic correctly.)

Beyond that, I'm not sure your numbers are comparable. First, you're using “some college” against graduations. Secondly, the better metric of associate/bachelor doesn't really apply since most EU universities' main program is a master's (though only slightly broader than the U.S. bachelor's) and associates – or candidates/licenciates – are not distinguished, as they're typically considered contained within the master's program.

Edit: though from what I understand, Germany's education system is pretty rigid, you get bucketed into a certain educational path pretty early. I don't think any of the other EU countries has a system quite like it. Please correct me if I'm wrong before I get around to reading an article about it.

[brudgers]

I'm not sure you are reading the numbers correctly. Since 78% of Germans have apprenticeship training or no vocational training.

I restricted myself from the broader field of post-secondary education because it is less readily available for the US [we focus on college] and a bit muddier considering that a great deal of post-secondary vocational training is done by the US military services.

The German University Diploma is far more focused than a typical US bachelor's degree - typically it does not have the general distribution requirements found in US universities.

[apl]

  > [...] and the opportunity for second, third, and
  > fourth chances at a college degree.

Can you clarify what you mean by that?

[brudgers]

In the US it is easy for people to return to university after dropping out. Even doing so multiple times is not a consideration for admission, e.g. I had five different majors over 12 years at three different universities (plus a stint in vocational school) before earning a bachelor's degree.

It is also common people to pursue a bachelor's degree in their 30's or 40's or later. Culturally, in large part this is a result of the changes to US higher education created by the GI bill following WWII - one of my grandfathers earned his bachelor's degree at the age of 40 following the war and my father in law his bachelor's at 43 after retiring from the navy in the 1970's.

But pursuing a degree in later life is not just tied to the GI Bill. One of my brothers-in law earned his bachelor's online at 51, another has earned two Master's degrees after age 40 (bachelor's at 36) and a third earned his bachelor's at 46.

None of my relatives would have been considered for the Gymnasium under the German system and my switching majors four times would have been frowned upon within German higher education(from Electrical Engineering to Chemistry to Geology to Chemistry Education to Philosophy)

[bugsy]

Do you consider it a good thing to have people getting 4 or 5 degrees and/or majors before they figure out what they really want to do in life? If yes, do you believe the cost of getting these degrees and/or attending college for more than 4 years should be paid for by themselves, or by others.

[brudgers]

In some ways, yes, I think it is a good thing. Channeling people into vocations at 18 [US system] or 10-13 [German system] isn't consistent with what is known about human development in general, and brain development in particular [http://hrweb.mit.edu/worklife/youngadult/changes.html] - and that's the scientific part of your question. The human cost of such channeling may be seen even here on HN [http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2238225] where fortunately for the poster he has access to the US educational system.

Who should pay for what is a political question - but in general the US system is pay to play and most students are not subsidized by with public funds (even though their loans may be Federally guaranteed).

[apl]

  > Channeling people into vocations at 18 [US system]
  > or 10-13 [German system]

Don't exaggerate. Yes, it's true that there's some segregation going on at that point (Gymnasium versus Hauptschule versus Realschule), but the boundaries are permeable.

Even if one assumes that students stick to their "path," that doesn't mean that they don't have a choice over their vocations later on. You're free to do whatever you want. Most students start their first degree when they're 21/22. 30-35% (IIRC) change "major."

I wouldn't say that HE flexibility is a specifically American strength.

[apl]

a) The GI bill was an exception to the rule. I sincerely doubt that people earning BAs in their 40s are as common nowadays as you claim they are. At least not more than common than in Germany. (Yes, it happens.)

b) Changing majors four times would indeed be frowned upon. But that doesn't mean it's impossible or even actively discouraged. Moreover, I don't believe that such radical and seemingly aimless changes are perfectly acceptable (in a social sense) in the US.

[brudgers]

October 2009 US statisics:

College students over the age of 35 = 1.18 million full time + 2.01 million part time.

[http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/school/cps2009/tab0...]

To put it in perspective approximately 1.00 million students enter German universities each year. Considering the three year structure of German University education - a crude approximation would be that there are roughly as many US college students over 35 as there are German university students.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany#Student_Po...

[perlgeek]

Actually some German states now also take tuition fees, but they are quite low (1000 Euro per year) compared to other countries.