[MatekCopatek]

I sometimes use business talk as a tool to make countering my points unattractive when having public discussions inside the company.

For example - let's say your boss decides to introduce some mandatory meeting that everyone agrees is useless. Rather then complaining about it in normal language, I would say things like "well, one of our core values is delighting clients, which I would be able to do much more efficiently if we would iterate on our process and try to optimize the time currently used by this meeting".

The example is intentionally simplified and the response is exaggerated, but you get the point - they are the ones encouraging you to use those phrases, which makes it more difficult for them to push back when you do it against them.

The only real risk is a coworker bursting into laughter in the middle of such an exchange.

[smoyer]

You have to be careful with that ... I would sometimes do the same thing to managers who don't have a clue what our business actually does. They're nodding along to something that's totally meaningless and when I wrap up the nonsense you can tell that they want to kick off their shoes and sing Kumbaya. If you're going to do this, you have to be sure that none of your coworkers will burst into laughter and that none of them will tell the clueless manager you were making fun of them.

[crispyambulance]

> ... sometimes use business talk as a tool to ...

I think it's natural to want to speak in a language or style which one might think others approve. However, I have found that while many managers are apt to use biz-speak/buzzwords themselves, it's not necessarily what they want to hear from others.

If you can instead speak in clear, concise, and empathetic sentences that get to the point, most people really appreciate and crave that-- especially when things are critical. Unfortunately that's very hard to do. There's a fine line between getting to the point and coming off as a cold-fish personality. It takes lots of practice.

[dvfjsdhgfv]

You're right, but these are two different scenarios: 1) you really want to communicate something to someone so that they understand it well, 2) your PHB has already decided what is best for you and you choose your defence strategy; in that case using buzzwords might be helpful.

[crispyambulance]

Everyone knows, privately in their inner thoughts, that "biz-speak" is baloney.

They use that language as a front for insecurity, not knowing what to say, or not being willing to say what they really mean. If the PHB is obfuscating an unpalatable (and non-negotiable) demand in biz-speak, it's not like parroting back some biz-speak is going to change his mind or strong-arm him.

You chances are better if you address the actual issues in plain and sensible language (or perhaps don't say anything at all). Even if it doesn't work, it at least lays bare the insincerity of the PHB's biz-speak.

[Razengan]

Oh that is actually quite masterful trolling. I shall adopt it.

[iudqnolq]

Can you give an example of a time that's really worked? I enjoy giggling along at that sort of thing but I assume most managers see right through it.

[ForHackernews]

> difficult for them to push back

Describing pushing back on push-back with "push back".

[dntbnmpls]

Oh "values". This meaningless buzzword has creeped into every facet of modern life. From politicians and their "western values" to CEOs and their "values" to baseball teams and their "values", everyone uses "values" to justify their evil or to defend or excuse their evil. And of course there is the "alignment" of "values".

Oh, stealing signs doesn't align with your team's values. We benefited from it greatly for years, but it doesn't align with our values since we got caught.

It's like an amoral organization's PR version of "my mamma taught me better than that". Some juvenile delinquent gets caught stealing from the store and he says, "I don't know why I did that. That's not me, that's not who I am, I'm not a thief. My momma taught me better than that." If he incorporated himself, he could've said, his actions did not align with his values. Problem solved.

[CPLX]

I disagree, I think “values” is a great word that has a clear meaning. It‘s a statement of what things you consider more important than others.

The problem you’re outlining here is that people often use the word while lying.

[rat9988]

This is due to the word meaning having multiple meanings.. Example:

"The values we all shares are fundamental"

We all know the meaning of the word values used in this sentence. we don't know it means what in this context, though. Am i talking about freedom? Equality? Somehing else?

[_8j50]

I guess you're more of a fields person.

[thulecitizen]

Sounds like a Graeberian Bullshit Job then

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/25/bullshit-jobs-...

[Droobfest]

This is just effective communication though?

I don't understand why your post is phrased so negatively. Some buzzwords have a sort of standardised meaning across a company so everyone knows what you're talking about.

"We agreed that delighting clients is important and I argue that I can better optimize it by not attending" There is nothing wrong with this?

Sure I'd agree customer satisfaction is a much better word for it.

[MatekCopatek]

I disagree, what I would want to say in such a situation is simply "this meeting is useless, let me get back to work", but I would be percieved as a grumpy developer with an attitude.

I wouldn't call all the sugarcoating effective communication as I expect everyone in the company to understand that not wasting people's time will let them do more work and benefit the customer in the end.

[kjakm]

>> I disagree, what I would want to say in such a situation is simply "this meeting is useless, let me get back to work", but I would be percieved as a grumpy developer with an attitude.

Of course you would be. Why does it have to phrased in some extremely positive or negative way? Why not something like "I'm pretty busy working on x. If anything comes up in the meeting that needs my attention let me know afterwards and I'll arrange a time to chat."

[NoOneNew]

Because the person conducting the meeting has already failed miserably at their job and must be made aware.

A boss that conducts a useless meeting, knowing it's to hear themselves talk while knowing their subordinates are busy with important tasks that actually keep the company afloat is generally considered, and this is the technical term, a dick maneuver. His/her choice to have a time wasting meeting greatly increases the chances of those employees having to work overtime to accomplish a task on schedule, cutting into their family/personal time. Since most of these types of jobs are salary, there's no overtime pay. So yes, negativity is important in this matter. Why cuddle someone who wants to waste other people's time just to hear themselves speak and have some artificial self-important time?

[lonelappde]

The personal hosting the meeting thinks it's not useless, so flatly disagreeing without a rationale is useless.

[amylene]

The onus is on the organizer to explain why the meeting will be useful. If they don’t do that upfront, a good culture encourages and supports ICs who ask the organizer for an agenda.