Ask HN: My manager suggested me to start taking Ritalin

[dr_robert]

I'm a Software Engineer, and I used to have a manager who in a 1:1 suggested me to start taking Ritalin to improve my focus. What are your thoughts about that? It's legal to suggest that kind of medical advice in a work environment? I don't feel like my focus is a problem.

[russellbeattie]

You can assume the worst and think your manager just wants you to work harder and longer while hopped up on amphetemines, or you can take it as not-particulary friendly advice to get yourself diagnosed for attention issues.

The best part of being diagnosed with ADHD as an adult and starting medication was my ability to sit quietly with my then 3 year old son and play blocks for longer than 10 minute stretches. Previously that was impossible. My diagnosis was a life-changing discovery that improved how I lived in a variety of contexts, both at home and at work.

Maybe your manager sees what he thinks your inability to focus as a real issue, and is, in a clumsy, intrusive way, suggesting you take it seriously. Or he's just an asshole and is trying to get more work out of you. That's for you to figure out.

[anonsivalley652]

Seems like a boundary issue to have a boss pushing meds. In fact, it could be illegal (IANAL).

Meds can help if there's a real issue, but there's almost always side-effects. Growing up, my parents were anti-medication and anti-psychology. It turns out I had untreated depression, Asperger's and ADD-I only diagnosed as an adult. Atomoxetine really helps me because I can't tolerate amphetamine stimulants or caffeine. I tried Adderal, Ritalin and Provigil, and they all made my anxiety and blood pressure much worse.

Also, I'm currently cross-titrating to my 14th anti-depressant. (The last one, mirtazapine, worked for 9 years at the expense of 25% weight gain.) Ketamine, LSD and invasive/ECT treatments are just about my last choices if this new one doesn't work. And the 12th one I tried gave me terrible vertical and horizontal nystagmus and whole-body, sporadic myoclonus. (Beware of extrapyramidal-causing and anticholinergic medications!)

[walrus01]

Find a way to get it in writing, and start looking for a new job, because your days there are numbered if your manager is giving unsolicited medical advice.

[dr_robert]

I already left the company and found my dev shop. It took me like a year to process that suggestion. This is the first time i write something about it.

[LZ_Khan]

Was it unsolicited? If the poster confided to his boss that he has focus issues, his boss might have just been trying to offer a solution (albeit a bad one). I don't see what's unethical about this.

[paloaltokid]

It’s still not appropriate for a manager who is not acting in a medical capacity to make that kind of recommendation.

It’s a huge huge leap to go from “I feel like your focus needs improvement” to “go get an amphetamine prescription because I feel you are not working hard enough.”

[bllguo]

I agree that it's inappropriate, but it seems like an equally huge leap to go from that to "your days are numbered" when we don't have any other context.

Of course our reactions are heavily biased towards our personal experiences. If my manager said something like that to me I'd laugh it off as a bad joke or a poorly executed gesture with good intentions.

[jkaplowitz]

Manager with ADHD here. The most I'd do is suggest checking with a professional, not impersonating one with my manager hat on.

And mostly I avoid prying about mental health, except to the extent the individual relationship makes the topic come up (e.g. if they mention it).

If it's impacting work performance, I can inquire in more open ended ways than that.

[rhcom2]

He could offer many solutions to a problem with focus, headphones, flexible working hours/location, ect but not medication. He is not a doctor and knows nothing about his employee's medication history.

[jonny_eh]

> I don't feel like my focus is a problem.

[LinuxBender]

Disclaimer: Neither a doctor nor a lawyer nor HR. In my opinion, it is probably not appropriate for the manager to suggest a drug unless you asked their opinion. For sure, they could not prescribe it to you or require you to take it.

You might ask them why they feel you lack focus. If they do not have a good answer, then perhaps you could request a skip level 1:1 with their manager, or if you feel that is a no-win, you could speak with HR, or decide to let it go. You know your work environment better than any of us and would have to weigh the pros and cons. I agree with others that say this doesn't always end well.

[dr_robert]

I know my self than my manager, my lack of focus, was because the work i was doing, super boring. My manager took all the "cool" decisions and make us struggle with that. So no motivation at all. But there is always a pill to solve our problems lol

[LinuxBender]

It sounds like you made the right decision to find something better.

[askGor]

Why there are only bio-conservative comments are populating this question?

* You may not be aware that you have a focus problem. Are there any (personal) logs of your working hours? Are you getting things done within the deadline?

Your manager's attitude is quite reasonable. If you need some imporved focus, nothing wrong to take Ritalin.

[artemisyna]

Note it down, bring it up to HR/your manager's manager.

Best case scenario, your manager is well-intentioned but is misinformed (or under-informed) about what is/isn't okay to say. Mild kerfuffle, not a big deal.

Worst case scenario, your manager is outright crap and the personnel around them is equally bad. (Aka the "you should really think about moving companies now" scenario.)

In either case, escalating is the way to resolve things.

[paloaltokid]

Totally inappropriate for a manager to make that kind of suggestion. Most likely not legal either.

Definitely get it in writing and then take it to HR. Alternatively, if you feel like this would fall on deaf ears, start looking for new employment.

[rhombocombus]

In a manager/report relationship I think it is inappropriate, but I had a colleague suggest I begin taking ADHD medication in grad school and it changed my life. Without knowing your relationship with your manager I can't speak to the appropriateness other than to say you shouldn't bring that up, but I have had very close relationships with some of my managers where I might have approached that level of honesty/vulnerability to make them feel like that was appropriate.

All of that aside, your manager is not a physician and you are free to ignore anything they say regarding your health. I would still reflect on why they might have said that and whether you are struggling in your role.

[FillardMillmore]

I definitely don't think this is legal (disclaimer though: I am not a lawyer), unless your manager is also a MD, but even then, I don't think it's legal unless he's acting in that capacity.

If, as you note, you are no longer working there, I wouldn't worry yourself too much about it unless you think that you do have focus issues. If that's the case, I would try correcting the problem in non-medical ways first. There's a number of things you can try - keep a tidy workspace, listen to soothing music if possible, try meditation, keep a low sugar diet, etc. If you feel that you've expended your options, consult your doctor.

[ryandvm]

Get serious. It may not be tactful or appropriate, but I'd be very surprised if suggesting to a subordinate that they go get checked out for ADHD was illegal.

Would it be illegal if his manager told him to go get a Tamiflu prescription as well?

[johnisgood]

Yeah, or would it be illegal to tell him to go to a doctor to get vision checked and corrected? People give medical advice to each other all the time. It is up to you whether or not you follow through, but even then, to get prescription you do need to visit a doctor. Why would telling people to visit a doctor to get X and Y prescribed illegal? Is it actually illegal? If he were to tell him to obtain Ritalin illegally, then I can see how that would be illegal, but from what I gathered he did not do that.

I am not a doctor. I told a stranger (who is now my friend) to visit a psychiatrist because I suspected he has ADHD. His psychiatrist diagnosed him with that, and he got a prescription for a stimulant. His life has changed tremendously for the better. It turned his life around. I gave him other medical advice (because I learnt a lot of medicine) about a variety of things that has improved his quality of life. I have no regrets.

[convolvatron]

wouldn't be the first employer to suggest that the employee might be more valuable if they started doing speed

[JohnFen]

I think that such a suggestion is huge Red Flag, and would either begin looking to be transferred internally so I had a different manager, or begin looking for work in another company altogether.

[Bheliar]

Absolutely not okay. ADHD medication should only be taken if one has ADHD. Which can only be determined by a medical specialist. And even if you do have ADHD, you don't have to take meds. ADHD meds are often misused as drugs, so suggesting this is basically asking you to take drugs. Not okay.

If a manager has a hunch that one of their employees has an unknown medical condition they might tell them about it. If their relationship is good enough.

If, on the other hand, they notice a performance issue, they can talk about that and potential ways to fix this. Which would include a quiter workplace, more interesting tasks or an inquiry of underlying issues.

I have ADHD and would have been happy if I had been diagnosed earlier. But I became a Machine Learning engineer without diagnosis. And while meds are nice, they surely were not the end of my problems. I am glad you don't work there anymore, because the real problem there was this manager.

[bks]

In life, we all have blind spots. Things that are obvious to others with more experience but may be invisible to ourselves.

But it may have been a helpful suggestion from the manager based on observation or personal experience that the OP might have some attention deficit issues that may or may not be improved with medication.

Hanlon's razor may apply here also.

[paloaltokid]

It doesn’t matter if the manager was intending to be helpful. You don’t suggest to an employee that they start taking drugs, full stop. The furthest you can go is to suggest medical diagnosis.

[Nursie]

Take stimulants so you can work harder for us. Yup, just some friendly advice.

However well intended, it's so wrong.

[nonmedic]

No. This is illegal. He's not a medical professional and should not be giving you advice on what medication to take.

[duxup]

It's inappropriate, but it's hard to know his intent.

[noonespecial]

"Oh wow, I didn't know you were a Medical Doctor as well! Where'd you go to school?"

[kirstenbirgit]

What a weird thing to do of your manager. How did he suggest this? Was he just like "I think you need to take Ritalin"? Did he suggest going to a psychiatrist, or did he want to sell some to you?

[whateveracct]

Managers and companies existence is fueled by extracting as much energy out of employees as possible. They just usually aren't so brazen about that.

Idk about the legality but it's hugely unprofessional.

[hatenberg]

Fireable offense in some environments. Big tech company or startup?

[dr_robert]

Big company at that time. 14k employees when i left.

[itronitron]

Yeah, any manager making a comment like that puts the company in legal peril for a number of reasons, the main one being that if they thought you needed some form of medical treatment and didn't follow through on making that happen then the company can be held liable.

[steven_noble]

Clearly unethical. Take written notes. Join your union.

But a few side points:

- ADHD is an actual condition that can cause lack of focus and/or hyperfocus

- there are plenty of other reasons why a person can exhibit lack of focus and/or hyperfocus

- in people with ADHD, stimulants are often very effective, but dosage and side-effects need careful medical management

- in people without ADHD, stimulants often make them feel like they are more focused that ever before, but blind studies have shown that their actual focus is not truly affected

[runawaybottle]

Can you link anything that backs up your last bullet point?

[steven_noble]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3489818/#__sec7...

[eindiran]

I don't see anything that backs up the claim you made in that paper. The closest thing I see:

"Stimulant drugs do improve the ability (even without ADHD) to focus and pay attention. One function, which is reliably improved by stimulant medications, is sustained attention, or vigilance. Stimulants improve sustained, focused attention, but “selective attention” and “distractibility” may be worsened, possibly because of a drug induced increase in impulsivity."

And that seems to contradict your point.

[steven_noble]

fair enough -- i was basing it on my memory of a documentary I saw once -- i looked up the documentary but could not find a list of the studies it cited, so I Googled for studies on the question

[helij]

This reminds me of when owners of a company told me to just give paracetamol to my 1yr old and leave at the nursery and come to work.

[jdhendrickson]

I had a similar situation with a punch bowl of no-doze at a data center startup.

No job is worth your health, I think glass door is a good outlet for this type of information.

[is_true]

Without the exact phrasing I don't think anyone can give any advice.

[sys_64738]

Send an email asking them which drug they recommend. Then go see a lawyer with the printout.

[atian]

Based on that this AskHN exists, there may be implications.

[runawaybottle]

That stuff is highly addictive. Honest to god, if he suggested it, most likely he takes it too. Get out of there, his expectations are based around people abusing speed, which means he basically expects some unhealthy output.

Remember kids, all drugs work, until they don’t. You can always take more I guess.

[edoceo]

If you find yourself needing to take more, please talk to your health professional. Help is available.

[runawaybottle]

‘Hey doc, so this pill that I thought was a good idea, turns out it doesn’t work anymore. I think I need more , because I’m totally dependent on it for my career.’

This conversation happens in reality all the time, for millions of adults that take it for their work.

[rhombocombus]

There are millions of people who take those medications as prescribed without addiction or dependence. If you are going off label then you have a problem, but in many cases these medications can make the difference between a successful life and a disastrous one.

[runawaybottle]

Of course. So there’s the nice way to talk about this (which is how you are talking about it), and then there’s the real way to talk about it - you know like how a manager in our industry casually suggest you take up a schedule 2 drug. This stuff is abused pretty rampantly.

[johnisgood]

You do develop tolerance and physical dependence even at therapeutic doses. You will experience withdrawal symptoms upon abrupt cessation because of it.

[steve_taylor]

Noise cancelling headphones playing Ambient Sleeping Pill helps me focus.

[smoyer]

Was (s)he a body hacker? I've seen people also experiment with nootropics in an aim to improve their output. The fact that it was a boss in a 1:1 is a bit weird but ... what if it had simply been a coworker telling you what worked for them?

[JohnFen]

> what if it had simply been a coworker telling you what worked for them?

That would be entirely different for two reasons. First, a coworker is not in a position of power over you. Second, there's a world of difference between saying "this was effective for me" and saying "you should do this."

[RNase]

Methylphenidate is not a nootropic. If you are wondering if amphetamines and their friends improve your work output, the answer is yes, yes they do. They won't make you smarter though.

[eindiran]

I mean, by that definition of nootropic there are no nootropics lol. From Wikipedia:

"Nootropics are drugs, supplements, and other substances that may improve cognitive function, particularly executive functions, memory, creativity, or motivation, in healthy individuals."

So CNS stimulants like methylphenidate (which definitely increase motivation in healthy individuals) are nootropics by that definition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic

[runawaybottle]

It’s a drug on the more potent end of the spectrum, it isn’t benign. Take a few, you won’t even need to wonder ‘I wonder if this is a nootropic’.

[smoyer]

I didn't say that Ritalin was a nootropic ... but body hackers have been known to use both for enhanced performance. When I was in elementary school, my parents refused to put me on Ritalin but did experiment with giving me coffee for breakfast (perhaps the start of my current habit?). It was always curious to me that stimulants could help with ADD/ADHD.

[eq_sd_]

Doesn't make any sense for a manager to suggest a specific drug, especially one that is a controlled substance in most countries or outright illegal.

[evo_9]

Better off taking Alpha GPC nootropic supplement. It’s cheap and more effective, helped me recover From a concussion recently and I’ve kept taking it. Stuff is amazing.

Also - find a new job your manager is terrible. It’s probably illegal and/or against company policy but you’d have to go around/above him to report this and honestly that never works out well.