[cjslep]

Let the market decide. Paying your employees better would be "trickle down economics" in actual action. If those employees decide to use it for philanthropy then the "trickle down" continues.

Except "trickle down" hasn't happened, isn't happening, and won't happen.

[AmericanChopper]

There’s no such thing as “trickle down economics”, the phrase “trickle down” was a joke created by a comedian named Will Rogers. So if you’re waiting for a satirical critique of politics to start shaping the economy, then I don’t know what to tell you.

What growth does do is increase competition for labor, so if your economic life plan resolves around earning income from labour, then you benefit from growth. You can see the effect our most recent growth trend has had in the fact that the unemployment rate is the lowest it’s been since the 60s [0], wage growth is double CPI [1], and workforce participation is starting to creep back up after a rather long downward trend [2].

[0] https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000

[1] https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2020/mobile/median-weekly-earni...

[2] https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/civilian-lab...

[cjslep]

I think giving me a charitable interpretation would be a good start. The origin of the phrase is lost in modern day culture and has a well understood meaning, and you denying me that makes it clear what kind of engagement you are looking for: one in which you feel justified and correct.

I'll give it to you: You're right! Good facts!

Moving on now...

I don't care if my neighbors can get one decent job or more-than-one-shitty job (your [0] and [2]) nor do I care that for X years we had growth in wages (your [1]) when the previous N*X years (for large N) that "real growth in wages" was 0. I would love to sell you stock that will grow at 0% for 30 years and only the last 5 have 2% over inflation. I don't want that toxic shit in my portfolio.

What I care about is the mentality that is justifying making "the market" be one or a handful of people, who happen to own a massive amount of wealth. It's no longer a free market. They are the market. Its self delusional to think someone shouting "I am the State!" has a democratic government, just as someone shouting "I am the market!" is a free and open capitalist market.

Basically, I can't believe my free-market loving friends are ok with its own dismantlement by the concentration of wealth by the ultra wealthy. And I am trying to get through to them.

Give the money to the employees. Who cares if they're already overpaid, because if they are then they'll also make philanthropic donations.

[AmericanChopper]

I think the charitable interpretation is that you (like many others) believe there is a group of free market economists that promote this idea of “trickle down economics”. This idea has even less merit than a strawman, since it’s literally a reference to a satire.

> I would love to sell you stock that will grow at 0% for 30 years

Real wage growth (inflation adjusted) has grown about 14% over the past 30 years (which included a financial crisis), so your assessment of the situation is quite unfactual. Those number are fantastic for a highly developed nation, especially when combined with such astonishingly low unemployment.

> What I care about is the mentality that is justifying making "the market" be one or a handful of people, who happen to own a massive amount of wealth.

Having more wealthy people doesn’t mean that everybody else has less. The growth in wealth isn’t taken away from others, it’s generated through economic growth. “The market” is in an absolutely fantastic state. If you want to market your labor, there is abundant opportunity to do so, and it’s worth more and more every year. If you want to generate your own wealth, go ahead, there is a huge amount of cheap capital available (that’s what all those wealthy people did, most of them at times in the past when capital wasn’t as available).

If you want people to “give” you money (as you put it), I don’t know... try Venezuela? The only thing that determines the value of anything is supply and demand. The only alternative system ever (disastrously) trialed was central planning. If you have a better system than supply and demand to propose, then you might have a Nobel prize on your hands.

[cjslep]

Please try to interpret my arguments charitably

> Real wage growth (inflation adjusted) has grown about 14% over the past 30 years

> your assessment of the situation is quite unfactual

This, for example, is entirely uncalled for. Ignoring the personal slander, since you're one for citations, and don't even provide one for your own quote here, it makes me suspicious so I went and pulled a chart for you on Wikipedia [0] based on the Department of Labor (using the same CPI that you used in your original reply to me) to show that, no, I do have a factual basis. And trying to claim I am irrational or unfactual is a great way to try to make me feel like shit. But I don't (which is not an invitation to keep trying).

> Having more wealthy people doesn’t mean that everybody else has less. The growth in wealth isn’t taken away from others, it’s generated through economic growth.

This is clear you're strawmanning me. And missed my entire point. The sheer amount of wealth, I have no problem with. But the sheer amount of wealth and power to dictate entire markets and, more alarmingly, remove segments of the population from having power in the free market is problematic for me, a free-market guy. Individuals should not have the market power to dictate what the market is. A free market should not have people powerless in that market. Which is exactly what is happening when people have to work multiple shit jobs and rely on social welfare to maintain a basic standard of living.

> If you want people to “give” you money (as you put it), I don’t know... try Venezuela?

This is such an obvious troll and a clear demonstration of your misunderstanding of my point and clear lack of caring on your part to understand, that it doesn't matter how logical and fact based of an argument I make, you're here to poke fun of a caricature of myself you have concocted for yourself. I'm calling this out as an opportunity for you to reflect.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_wages#/media/File%3AUni...

[AmericanChopper]

> to show that, no, I do have a factual basis.

30 years ago is pretty much the lowest point on that graph. Real wage growth shrank between the 70s and 90s, but it has most certainly been climbing for the last 30 years. I really don’t know how charitable you’re expecting me to be with interpreting what you’re saying. When you say something that’s simply outright wrong, am I supposed to just guess that you meant to say something else that could kinda almost be seen as only a little bit wrong?

> This is such an obvious troll and a clear demonstration of your misunderstanding

It’s really not at all. How about you show some of that charity you’ve been talking about? Your problem stems from wages being determined by supply and demand. Well, there’s countries in the world today that have implemented the economic systems you’re advocating for. If you can’t think of a single one you’d even consider living in (aside from as say, an upper class foreigner), then what does that tell you about your ideas? I’m calling this out as an opportunity for you to put some more thought into your ideas, instead of jumping to the conclusion that people who challenge them are personally attacking you.

[cjslep]

> 30 years ago is pretty much the lowest point on that graph. Real wage growth shrank between the 70s and 90s, but it has most certainly been climbing for the last 30 years

You're right, 50 years is what I meant. We are back to the 70's. Thanks for correcting me on this.

> Well, there’s countries in the world today that have implemented the economic systems you’re advocating for.

What economic system do you think I am advocating for?

I'm pretty sure whatever response you have in your head, is wrong. I opened this thread simply "pay employees better" and have since shown how I am a free-market person, yet you've gone Chávez on me.

But! I will still humor your questions.

> If you can’t think of a single one you’d even consider living in (aside from as say, an upper class foreigner), then what does that tell you about your ideas?

I actually did this where the cost of living was higher (thus moving down in class). I moved from low-cost USA to high-cost Switzerland. And yet it's a form of capitalism that is socially responsible and gives everyday society a pretty damn good quality of life in comparison.

> I’m calling this out as an opportunity for you to put some more thought into your ideas, instead of jumping to the conclusion that people who challenge them are personally attacking you.

This is rich. I'm asking you to consider that people that disagree with you aren't idiots and are putting in that thought into their ideas (making your whole demand of yours, a reflection of your lack of charity!), such as uprooting their whole damn life to move to another country, instead of creating a caricature of that person and then making a bunch of dismissive uncharitable opening comments to a very simple "pay employees better".

The fact that I have to say "I assure you I did put serious thought into this" should be a red flag to how you engage in "thoughtful" internet debate. It reeks of Reddit's awful culture, where people think "I can make logical arguments from facts. I have facts. This means my argument must be correct and others that disagree must be wrong."

The world is a lot greyer than that.