[BinaryIdiot]

The joint motion points to adopting Directive 2014/53/EU which requires common _chargers_ but says nothing about the port that the phone uses. As far as I can tell this is only for the back half of the charger / brick that connects to the wall.

Yet the Apple statement, and most of the articles about this (including the linked one), are talking about the phone's connector and talks about lightning and usb-c. Most of the comments online are talking about how this forces Apple to use usb-c.

So, which is it? Isn't this just regulating the power bricks / back half of the charging equation? I don't see anything in the joint motion or directive stating a connector on a device has to be uniform at all.

Joint motion: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2020-0070...

Directive: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:02...

[SiempreViernes]

Indeed, the text only speaks of a "common charger" without specifying further, so I'm somewhat surprised you make the claim the directive speaks only about one sub-part of the charger.

To me things appear thus: the EP passed a directive that states mobile radio equipment should have a "common charger", sensibly letting manufacturers decide how to solve the interoperability problem. Apple then argued "well, it's not explicit that you should be able use the 'common charger' without an adapter" and continued making phones that can't be charged by equipment made by others.

This join resolution isn't super clear about it, but does indicate that: "common charger" really ought to mean you can use the same charger for all similar devices.

[GeekyBear]

Apple's charger already had a standard USB-A port and has moved to having a standard USB-C port.

It's the cable that they include with the iPhone that has a USB connector on the charger end and a lightning port on the phone end.

That included cable allows you to charge with any manufacturer's USB-C charger in the same way that the previous version of the cable worked with any USB-A charging port.

So, in summary, the cable Apple gives you works with other manufacturers chargers, and the charger Apple gives you works with other phones, using a standard USB-C cable that, I would imagine, came with the phone.

If they want to force Apple's hand specifically, they should be focusing on the port on the phone, not the charger.

[SiempreViernes]

> So, in summary, the cable Apple gives you works with other manufacturers chargers, and the charger Apple gives you works with other phones, using a standard USB-C cable that, I would imagine, came with the phone.

The point is you still need extra stuff just to charge your phone when you switch manufacturer. So what apple provides is in fact not a "common charger", but merely a transformer+rectifier that, using additional equipment, can be made into a "common charger".

[GeekyBear]

You don't need anything but the cable that came with your phone.

[monocasa]

Whereas the entire point of the regulation is to not need the cord that came with your phone, but to use anyone's. They got tired of all the proprietary connectors back in the feature phone days.

[ashildr]

So what specific kind of USB-C cable will be allowed to be packed with my next shiny for the decades to come? What kind of USB-PD will the phone be allowed to support and - if the phone supports a higher voltage/amperage combination than the EU fixed in 2020 - will I have to buy an additional cable to support this?

How did we ever switch from SCART to HDMI after the EU forced the TV manufacturers to only support SCART in 1996? Oh, it didn’t.

This is complete and utter nonsense. Apple’s powerplugs for iPhone/iPad only ever came with USB-A - or now with USB-C. They thankfully switched their lightning port before USB-C was even published, when everybody was still selling broken micro-USB or barrel connectors. There are many problems to solve, but Lightning isn’t one.

[tokamak-teapot]

I thought it was to reduce materials waste from making and disposing of the chargers themselves.

[eanzenberg]

So they missed the boat by 15 years?

[GeekyBear]

If the cord was still hard wired into the charger like the old days, you would have a point, but this is supposedly about the chargers.

[DangitBobby]

Aren't these cables notorious for fraying and breaking?

https://frayedlightningcables.tumblr.com/

Anecdotally, my friends' cables always seem to be frayed. I personally have not owned an apple phone in many years, but I recently bought an apple brand usb-c to 3.5mm adapter at an airport because that's all they had and I forgot mine at home... It stopped working after about a month of very gentle use. It's in perfect physical condition.

The point is, if you have to keep replacing them, it's not a reduction in e-waste and runs counter to the spirit of the ruling.

[tokamak-teapot]

I have about 6 lightning cables and only one has started to lose its rubber sheathing after years of abuse. We all have anecdata.

[djannzjkzxn]

Is this any better than the cables that come with non-Apple devices? I’m skeptical.

[vineyardmike]

Meanwhile, every other electronic that ships with USB C never requires extra stuff.

No extra stuff to connect to old devices, no extra stuff to connect to vide/displays, no extra stuff to connect to network connections, etc.

For a connector that was supposed to reduce electronic waste and simply connections, USB C has generated a lot of extra cables required.

[signal11]

> If they want to force Apple's hand specifically, they should be focusing on the port on the phone, not the charger.

It's worth remembering that the backers of the EU legislation started with the idea of reducing e-waste, not punishing a particular manufacturer. Nor is it a Lightning vs USB-C squabble.

Getting people to throw their lightning cables, charging ports, docking stations, etc away would be counter-productive to their aims. The Lightning port has been around for a long time and getting rid of that will cause significant e-waste.

[ern]

The Lightning port has been around for a long time and getting rid of that will cause significant e-waste.

From personal experience, Lightning already produces significant e-waste. The lack of strain relief means that my family experiences many broken Lightning cables each year.

[llampx]

That's not a Lightning thing, that's an Apple thing. Most of their cables suffer the same problem.

[FreakyT]

Right, but by using their own proprietary cable, Apple cables (and those officially “approved” by Apple) are the ones that get sold, and the terrible failure rates.

[HelloNurse]

We are talking about new devices, and possibly fines about old ones. Making iPhones with USB-C ports doesn't mean "throwing away" anything.

[PunksATawnyFill]

Strawman. That’s a one-time transition. And do Apple devices even come with chargers anymore?

[BinaryIdiot]

Hmm. You make a good point.

In my attempt at reading both of these there seems to be a clear distinction being made when it refers to cables and when it refers to chargers. It also never really mentions ports.

Therefore, to me, it cares less about the port and cable on the phone half and more about the brick / part that plugs into the wall.

Neither document provides a definition for "charger". So perhaps whoever is in charge of implementing this directive (I'm not sure how this works in EU law) can interpret it either way?

I wish it was more clear.

[SiempreViernes]

I read "charger" to mean "the thing you use for charging", and not really bothering with the technical detail of exactly how this thing is made.

I think reading the texts as if they spoke only of the transformer/brick itself is to narrow, and not in line with the common understanding of what a "charger" is.

I will offer this suggestion of a precise definition for "charger": the complete technological assemblage required for transferring electrical power, suitable for storage, from a common wall socket onto the portable radio device.

Basically, if you have a wall socket, a mobile radio device, and a third thing, and they cannot be assembled so that the mobile can be charger, the thing is not a "common charger".

[BinaryIdiot]

Good points. My only hesitation on the charger definition is most laws include whatever definition the legislature is operating under and sometimes it's different than what you'd expect.

I'd like to see some clarification :)

[djannzjkzxn]

You can define the charger to include the cable, and I can define the phone to include the cable. Either way it doesn’t provide much insight into the definitions with legal force.

[brmgb]

That's not how it works. What the lawmakers mean is pretty clear as soon as you go read the documents affixed to the motion. There is no need for more boilerplate.

The 2018 Comission report has this to say on the subject for example :

The study has, in particular, provided the following information and conclusions: even manufacturers of mobile phones which did not sign up to the Memorandum of Understanding appear to have also adopted Micro-USB charging solutions, leading to the indication that almost 100% of data enabled phones sold in Europe in 2013 were compliant with Micro-USB charging solution.; due to the Memorandum of Understanding, it is estimated to have resulted in six to 21 million fewer standalone chargers over the period 2011 to 2013; the increasing prevalence of Micro-USB charging has limited the need to purchase standalone chargers and consequently reduced the use of raw materials than might otherwise have been the case.

Since the previous experience of the Memorandum of Understanding had proven to be successful for the reasons mentioned above, the Commission wished to continue the approach already followed based on a voluntary agreement. Moreover, a voluntary solution could more readily accommodate new technology and innovation compared to a regulatory option. Additionally, a voluntary approach may have had the advantage of having a wider scope, compared to the regulatory option, for example, it may have covered both ends of the charging cable 79 .

However, given the unsatisfactory outcome so far of the progress in the voluntary option, the Commission will shortly launch a study to assess costs and benefits of different options, including the regulatory one.

[djannzjkzxn]

If the report is saying almost 100% of phones sold follow the reg, then they must be saying Apple are in compliance, right? I don’t see how you can get near 100% of phones without including the iPhone.

Also, take a look here:

> Additionally, a voluntary approach may have had the advantage of having a wider scope, compared to the regulatory option, for example, it may have covered both ends of the charging cable.

>However, given the unsatisfactory outcome so far of the progress in the voluntary option, the Commission will shortly launch a study to assess costs and benefits of different options, including the regulatory one.

This seems to say fairly clearly that only a voluntary option would cover both ends of the cable. Then it says they are looking at the regulatory option instead of the voluntary option. It doesn’t seem to contemplate a non-voluntary regulation covering both ends of the cable.

I don’t think I’m being pedantic or obtuse here, just reading the doc plainly.

[tripzilch]

> You can define the charger to include the cable, and I can define the phone to include the cable.

Yeah but nobody would take you seriously. Read it again with the idea in mind that somehow the cable is "part of the phone": https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2020-0070...

Does the phone work without the cable? YES!

Does the charger work without the cable? NO!

Exceept ... in the case of wireless charging, yup. Which they explicitly mention. Would that mean that ... maybe ... the other kind of charging, involves cables?

Finally they state that one of the goals is reduction in the volume of cables collected and recycled.

[tripzilch]

This one? https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2020-0070...

The charger is obviously the thing between your phone and the power socket. It seems perfectly clear to me.

Because the entire thing is a charger. You can't use the charger without the cable. If the cable was a separate thing, fully interchangeable, the whole law wouldn't be necessary.

And they can't in hindsight decide that the cables aren't part of the "package" because they wrote in the resolution what the motivation of this law is, which is interoperability / compatibility / interchangeability and reducing waste, and if the cable part is non standard and not compatible, then obviously you'd need an additional cable to make the whole charger simply operable. Needing additional cables is what the resolution states (several times) is one of the explicit purposes, to prevent.

They also specifically discuss that wireless charging should be common as well, because not needing a cable is even better than needing the same cable.

I get the idea that sometimes EU laws are so clear and straightforward, that Americans implicitly don't trust them and expect a "gotcha!".

[paxys]

The thing that plugs into the wall is already regulated (for every electronic device, not just chargers). That is why you don't have to rewire your house when you buy a new phone. This directive is specifically for the bit that connects to your phone.

[greglindahl]

And every single Apple phone I've owned so far uses a cable that plugs into USB A. Which is a standard. I'm still using the wall warts I got for my original iPhone. Which have international wall plug kits. Solid, long-lived electronics.

Meanwhile, the burner phones I've bought for when I'm in the EU have these shitty all-in-one wall-to-micro-USB, and I ended up eventually throwing them out. So there's your e-waste.

[PunksATawnyFill]

Micro-USB is shit.

So is Lightning, but at least it’s slightly more robust physically.

USB-C and be done with it.

[viraptor]

Compare the price of an Apple phone to a burner phone and you'll know why they're not great quality. Apple chargers at that price would also suck.

[greglindahl]

The problem with the burner chargers was that they were inflexible. The wall plug couldn't be changed for other countries, and there was no USB A between the wall wart and the cable so I couldn't use it to charge all of my other gadgets.

[viraptor]

Replaceable plug costs more money and I don't expect you spent a lot on your burner phones. My flagship Android did come with a replaceable plug.

The fact you couldn't charge all your other gadgets is the point of the regulation though.

[greglindahl]

It is? Only in some abstract sense. They all already have a cable that plugs into USB A. I'm supposed to throw them all away to move to a new standard interface in a different place?

[pwinnski]

Apple is already using USB-C on the bit that plugs into the wall, so if that's all this is, it's nothing.

Apple has protested this, so it seems like it must be more.

[joezydeco]

What is Apple is heading toward completely sealed phones with only wireless charging / data xfer and they’re nervous that the EU is going to force them to keep the physical port on the device?

[samatman]

Well, not that it's relevant to the topic at hand, but if they do so, I'm leaving the ecosystem.

Not being able to charge from a backpack or a car is a non-starter for me. I go weeks without plugging my phone into the wall, but when I need it, I really need it.

[culturestate]

> Not being able to charge from a backpack or a car is a non-starter for me.

In this hypothetical future you'd have to replace the power bank and charging cables that you currently own, but you'll be able to achieve both of those goals just fine. You can already buy power banks[1] with built-in charging coils, and I imagine some enterprising company will be along with a svelte USB-to-Qi-coil cable that suctions onto your phone any day now.

1. https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-qi-wireless-charging-...

[londons_explore]

So far, efficiency is kinda low for use with portable battery packs.

You'd need to carry around a pack twice the size.

[8fingerlouie]

I carry a 10000 mAh battery pack[1] in my jacket[2], which besides powering the heater elements inside the jacket also provides wireless charging to my phone.

I don't know about effectiveness, but 20-30 minutes of wireless charging gives 60% + of battery power on my phone, and while i don't regularly charge my phone fully in the jacket, only top it off, i charge the battery pack once every week or so, and it is very rarely at 0%

[1]: https://www.amazon.co.uk/SANAG-Wireless-Portable-10000mAh-Co...

[2]: https://www.ministryofsupply.com/products/mens-mercury-intel...

[iso1631]

Many people have said that - over removing the dock, over 3.5mm, over removing smaller handsets, yet Apples profits continue to soar.

[djannzjkzxn]

Apple has worked on wireless proximity charging where the device merely needs to be within a few feet of the charger. I hear there are serious engineering challenges that make this hard to achieve but I don’t think they will remove the port with the current QI charging experience. Maybe there will be a charging battery you can just throw in the same bag as the phone and the phone will charge.

[jakobegger]

> ... serious engineering challenges ...

I'd say there are serious physical challenges with this problem. Wireless power transfer over distances of more than an inch without big parabolic antennas is about as realistic as hoverboards.

[georgespencer]

uBeam is the canonical example of this. Their own VP Engineering left and publicly stated that the technology simply doesn't work. ELI5 is that you need an impractically large phased array to transmit, and the attenuation is precipitous even at short distances. The commentary I've read (by no means exhaustive) treats it as if it's a "laws of physics" problem, but I would assume the company had some reasonably compelling answers to this challenge given that they raised $40m USD from some bright investors.

[scottlocklin]

My iphone X does this; works fine. It's not that "wireless" -just a shitty transformer, but it's nice.

[tripzilch]

Wireless charging is covered under point 6 of the resolution.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2020-0070...

[ksec]

Please tell me you read my "Sealed" iPhone comment on macrumors :D

Yes. And I think they will use Smart Connector currently used on iPad as Data and Power Connection. Since it isn't really a port so the devices is still all sealed up. Assuming they get rid up Sim tray as well.

[jakear]

I wonder what that will do for security. It seems the publicly known exploits tend to use the wired connection to swipe data from the phone. It would likely be much more difficult to do that wirelessly. It would be a shame to lose the potential hardening benefits because of some lawmakers who may not have privacy as a core interest... or indeed quite the opposite.

[int_19h]

This is strictly about charging, so a phone that uses USB for charging only, and does synchronization etc wirelessly, should still be compliant.

[gpm]

You can always not connect the data wires to the port.

[kevin_thibedeau]

Then you can't use USB-PD protocol and only get the gimped resistor-based current negotiation.

[Kliment]

USB-PD doesn't use the data wires (dp/dn or the two high speed diffpairs), it uses a sidechannel (CC). You can have a full PD implementation without a host controller or any data connection.

[PunksATawnyFill]

Wireless charging is a stupid gimmick, but it’s the anti-consumer angle that will get Apple on board with wireless-only.

[akvadrako]

It seems pretty clear at the current stage it’s completely vague. Probably Apple has no idea what actionable laws will result.

Will they mandate all phones have usb-c ports? That’s absurd because who knows what’ll be the standard port in 5 years.

[iSnow]

The only thing the EU mandates is producers come up with a common standard. Whether that's USB-C or Lightning is of no interest to the EU.

[greglindahl]

Who could possibly criticize the EU for mandating something which has a history of being successfully used by some of the producers to fuck over the rest?

[pergadad]

Also this motion is not deciding anything. The parliament is just asking the commission (the EU equivalent to a ministry/government) to publish a study on this and take a next step.

Fixing to a specific standard would also not be something done in EU law - laws are meant to be slow-changing, this would be a barrier. You might have a law that specifies that a standard should be set and/or industry bodies ought to agree on a standard to use.

[Freestyler_3]

What I thought they were going for was that phones would no longer come with cable+charger, instead you could buy the one type of charger + cable that exists.

This would mean one connector for all devices.

If they allow different connectors on phones then lots of different cables will be made, and when a person switches phones then their old cable ends up in the trash.