[pjmlp]

It would help if Khronos would promote an API for people who “just want to draw stuff”, given that OpenGL 5.0 will never happen most likely and those people don't want to be stuck with OpenGL 4.6 forever.

That is not what everyone does, because Vulkan gets new extensions updates almost every week.

[loup-vaillant]

> It would help if Khronos would promote an API for people who “just want to draw stuff”

Would it?

What you really want is a stable API to talk to the hardware. It doesn't really matter if the API is nigh unusable, as long as it is stable. Only when such stability is reached, can we reliably build stuff on top of it. Including a "just draw stuff" engine.

We could for instance re-implement Flash on top of Vulkan. Such a thing wouldn't need a standard body to get done and be usable by a wide range of people. (Though in this particular case, we'd likely have some standard body involved anyway, since there's already so much Flash code out there.)

[pjmlp]

So where do OpenGL developers move to, when 4.6 moves into "this legacy thing we would like to drop"?

[DiabloD3]

You implement OpenGL as a middleware that speaks Vulkan.

Basically, ANGLE it, but for desktop OpenGL instead of GLES.

As an aside, Google is adding a Vulkan backend for ANGLE, and Microsoft seems to be adding a DX12 (which is basically DXVulkan) backend (to match the DX11 backend they gave Google) at some point in the future.

So, GLES, in its entirety, is now a community supported, open source, Vulkan middleware. No reason why we can't do that with desktop GL too.

[pjmlp]

So 10 years from now those that don't want to be a mix of graphical developer, driver author and compiler designers, have to keep using a frozen API from 2018, without any access to whatever has changed on their computers during the next decade.

All because providing something like MetalKit or DirectXTK is too much to ask for to Khronos and LunarG.

[DiabloD3]

But should it change? There are issues where updating OpenGL support in drivers broke earlier apps due to accidental changes in how existing features were implemented.

Vulkan and DX12 are far less likely to break existing apps i the future due to far fewer core features.

It makes no sense to have what is essentially an entire legacy middleware in the driver when it no longer represents modern hardware.

Unlike GLES, OpenGL basically can never deprecate features, and D3D9 support will never, truly, die. It's a lot easier to just package a universal shim into existing legacy apps than it is to keep mangling drivers over the issue.

[pjmlp]

> It makes no sense to have what is essentially an entire legacy middleware in the driver when it no longer represents modern hardware.

Exactly, but it is the only API that Khronos is offering for those that don't want to be Vulkan experts.

Which leaves middleware engines, something totally unrelated to Khronos APIs, as the only future proof path for accessing GPU features on modern hardware.

As for drivers breaking down, the main reason why Vulkan is now compulsory on Android as of version 10, is because while it was optional, the few OEMs that bothered to support it did a very lousy job, so Google hopes by making it compulsory and part of Android CTS, the situation will improve.

[atq2119]

> Vulkan and DX12 are far less likely to break existing apps i the future due to far fewer core features.

This is questionable. Vulkan by definition has basically no error checking in the driver, and while developers are supposed to use the validation layer, they may not do so, and even if they do, there are certain plenty of incorrect things an application can do that won't be caught by validation.

Incorrect programs may still happen to run correctly on existing drivers, but then fail with a driver update that happens to change the undefined behavior.