[29athrowaway]

> Russia is invading neighbours, actively escalating military tensions and sabre rattling.

In the specific case of Crimea, it's much more complicated than that. It is an invasion, but there's much more about it than just "Russia invading neighbors", you're oversimplifying things.

Russia invaded the Crimean Oblast within Ukraine, rather than all of Ukraine.

In the Soviet Union, Crimea was an Oblast of the Russian SFSR. First secretary Nikita Khrushchev, who was of Ukranian origin, transferred the governance of the Crimean oblast from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954 as a "symbolic gesture".

But after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, many Russians (an ethnic majority inside Crimea) were not satisfied with the resulting situation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea

https://www.britannica.com/place/Crimea/History

[missosoup]

You're myopically selecting a single incident out of a multitude of hostilities and invasions such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War which by the way included a prototype 'field test' of the disinformation strategy that was later wielded against US and EU with terrifying effectiveness.

I'm sure if one tries hard enough, they can find some kind of justifications for a lot of Russia's actions, but the bigger picture remains unchanged: Russia is a giant dick and most of its neighbours are afraid of it. Hence NATO.

[Const-me]

> Russia is occupying the Crimean Oblast within Ukraine

Russia also occupying parts of Donetsk and Luhansk.

> many Russians were not satisfied with the resulting situation, including Russians living in Crimea

Pre-war sociology shows 38% of Crimean residents wanted to join Russia, that number declining over time: https://www.km.ru/world/2012/09/14/polozhenie-russkoyazychno... (Russian). 38% is indeed many people, but that’s still a minority.

[surewhynat]

This thread is not about Ukraine, but, if we must ...

The protests in Kiev and other cities were violent and out of control. Ukraine was 6 months away from an election which they could have normally voted out their president, but, the people overthrew the government instead. Since then, the country has been so much worse off economically and socially. People have barely any money to pay their gas bills or buy luxury food items such as almonds. The GDP is currently one of the lowest of any countries in the world.

Other regions in the country such as the Donbass also never wanted to overthrow their president, which is why they began their separatist movement which led to its current civil war.

Crimea got a lucky break that it had the history that it does, and that all the Russian speaking population was there, and that there was Russian military presence there to enforce peace.

Maybe pre-sociology shows 38% pre Ukrainian protests in 2012, but, a lot changed in 2 years during that complete anarchy in most Ukrainian cities such as Kiev, Odessa, and the atempted Anarchy in Donetsk. The people of Crimea very simply just want stability and peace, like most people do.

> 97 percent vote for integration of the region into the Russian Federation with an 89 percent voter turnout.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

[Const-me]

> were violent and out of control

Technically that’s true, but it’s important to remember the protest was peaceful for couple months. Then police started the violence. People have a right of self-defense.

> the country has been so much worse off economically and socially

Despite Ukraine have been fighting Russian army for almost 5 years now, what you’re saying is not true: https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/gdp-per-capita-ppp

> one of the lowest of any countries in the world

Not true. Ukraine is near the median, doing better than India or Philippines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP...

> which is why they began their separatist movement which led to its current civil war

Neither of that is true. The “separatists” for the “separatists movement” were Russian military personnel or special forces. The war ain’t civil, there’re tons of factual evidence of direct Russian army involvement.

[29athrowaway]

Hostile "migrants" that later revolt, claim independence and join their country of origin?

Wow, that sounds familiar. Like Hawaii, California Bear revolt, Texas revolution.

[surewhynat]

Again, not a post about Ukraine, but, ok ...

>Technically that’s true, but it’s important to remember the protest was peaceful for couple months. Then police started the violence. People have a right of self-defense.

Violent protest is not the answer, not when they had an election coming up very soon.

> Despite Ukraine have been fighting Russian army for almost 5 years now, what you’re saying is not true:

Millions of people have fled the country to work abroad in countries like Poland and Russia, among other countries in Western Europe. The common people do not have enough money to pay their gas bills, to pay for their heating in brutal winters. Your graph displaying some growth "per capita growth", have a look at this graph showing the value of their currency

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=UAH&to=USD&view=10Y

In terms of socially, absolutely it is worse. No one can afford to buy any import goods. There are dozens of reports of mass emigration, and the people that stay now almost all own guns in fear. You can't tell me that this is socially better than how Ukraine was before the revolution.

>Not true. Ukraine is near the median, doing better than India or Philippines:

Ukraine was a developed nation. It had all the potential to be a manufacturing and tech powerhouse. It was a country filled with brilliant minds, engineers and hardworking people. Many of which have now fled the country. If you seriously want to compare Ukraine to India (where they don't have access to clean water or sanitation) and make that the bar for Ukraine then this discussion with you truly is fruitless.

>Neither of that is true. The “separatists” for the “separatists movement” were Russian military personnel or special forces. The war ain’t civil, there’re tons of factual evidence of direct Russian army involvement.

I think it's pretty clear that the Donbass separatists are backed with Russian aid. No one is disputing that. But it is not Russian Military doing the fighting, which is a difference.

It's the people of the Donbass fighting for their own rights. The people on the front lines are people of the Donbass. USA sends military personnel to train the Ukrainian Army, and Russia probably trains people of the Donbass as well. At the end of the day it's the people of the Donbass on the front lines fighting for their rights.

This tit for tat argument needs to end. Seriously, people in Ukraine are so much worse off today than they were before the revolution.

[Const-me]

> Violent protest is not the answer

Too bad the old Ukrainian government didn’t know it, and started to use violence against it’s own people.

> Millions of people have fled the country to work abroad

The economy is global, air travel is cheap, Internet simplified things a lot. Ukraine is no exception. Globally, 258 million people, myself included, are living outside their country of birth.

> Your graph displaying some growth "per capita growth", have a look at this graph showing the value of their currency

That graph is in USD after adjustments for purchasing power. Currency exchange rates are irrelevant.

> No one can afford to buy any import goods

In 2018, Ukraine has imported goods worth 56 billion USD, smartphones alone were just under $1B: http://www.worldstopexports.com/ukraines-top-10-imports/

> There are dozens of reports of mass emigration

There’s no mass emigration, net migration is around zero: https://blogs.elenasmodels.com/en/ukrstat-migration-statisti...

> But it is not Russian Military doing the fighting

Russians started the war, and they did the fighting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Strelkov_(officer) Their armed forces are still there. It doesn’t matter they deny that, way too much documentary evidence of their direct involvement, for instance read links from that article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_intervention_...

[surewhynat]

You're now fighting with me on two different conversation threads, what seems like just for the sake of fighting at this point.

Violent protest is always greeted with crowd control. In Every Country. You seem to be forgetting that the Ukrainian population caused a revolution, instead of waiting for the election for a few more months.

Have a look at the violence from protestors just before it all fell apart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stK3YPz6WTc

The people are worse off today than they were before. Not everyone supported their revolution, and you can deny that all you want, but, the people in the Donbass don't want to be a part of the circus that is Ukraine in its current state.

> Currency exchange rates are irrelevant.

Clearly I'm beating a dead horse. I don't know where to begin explaining to you that currency is not irrelevant.

About the mass emigration, these are people who have not filed for citizenship with other countries because in a lot of circumstances they cannot. No one is coming to Ukraine looking at it as a desirable place to live at the moment. There are less jobs in Ukraine, there is less trade in Ukraine, people have no choice but to work abroad.

Yes, I am also aware of the cases of some defected ex-Russian military helping the Donbass fighters, but, again you keep ignoring the fact that 99% of the population enlisted in fighting are citizens of the Donbass...

How can you honestly argue that the status quo is better than it was before the revolution? What are you even arguing?

[viraptor]

Apart from the stuff mentioned in the sibling comment, the numbers don't even pass a smell test.

That's 89% turnout, with international observers being denied entry. Compared to presidential election 2010 where Crimea had only 63.1% voters that bothered to act.

[surewhynat]

Okay, it doesn't pass your smell test...

If there was another referendum today, and the people were given an option today, what do you think they would vote for?

You never hear from Crimeans complaining about the referendum result in any way.

Those people dodged a huge bullet and they know that. Ukraine is a mess, and perhaps one day when the fighting in Ukraine ends, when the corruption ends, someone should ask those people what they want to do.

[Const-me]

> If there was another referendum today, and the people were given an option today, what do you think they would vote for?

Depends on how you define “the people”. Are you going to ask Russians who moved to Crimea after the annexation? Are you going to ask Ukrainians who were unhappy with the shenanigans, and fled their homeland?

> You never hear from Crimeans complaining about the referendum result in any way.

Lack of complains can’t be interpreted as a sign as support, because many people were imprisoned, tortured, and/or killed for such complains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Ru...

[surewhynat]

You're seriously just arguing for the sake of arguing and it's absurd.

Sure, I will clarify what I meant to you. Ask the same people that lived in Crimea at the time the original referendum took place.

>Lack of complains can’t be interpreted as a sign as support, because many people were imprisoned, tortured, and/or killed for such complains:

Lots of footage in Crimea during that time. There were no protests against the referendum. Vice News was filming the whole thing, along with other members of the press. No one was tortured to join Russia as you say. There was a vote, with some minorities that were upset by the outcome.

Economically speaking the people of Crimea caught a huge break. Ukraine has to realize that it needs to work with all neighbours. Look to countries that are successful by example. Do you see France boycotting Germany? Do you see China boycotting Japan? Fighting is the problem. Not listening to your people is the problem. Using scapegoats and boogymen instead of fighting internal corruption is the problem. Ignoring economic development is the problem.

[29athrowaway]

I took that from Encyclopedia Britannica:

> Ethnic Russians constituted a majority of the population in Crimea

https://www.britannica.com/place/Crimea/History

About other oblasts like Donetsk and Luhansk, I don't think Russia has a way to make those territorial claims look legitimate.