[Const-me]

> were violent and out of control

Technically that’s true, but it’s important to remember the protest was peaceful for couple months. Then police started the violence. People have a right of self-defense.

> the country has been so much worse off economically and socially

Despite Ukraine have been fighting Russian army for almost 5 years now, what you’re saying is not true: https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/gdp-per-capita-ppp

> one of the lowest of any countries in the world

Not true. Ukraine is near the median, doing better than India or Philippines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP...

> which is why they began their separatist movement which led to its current civil war

Neither of that is true. The “separatists” for the “separatists movement” were Russian military personnel or special forces. The war ain’t civil, there’re tons of factual evidence of direct Russian army involvement.

[29athrowaway]

Hostile "migrants" that later revolt, claim independence and join their country of origin?

Wow, that sounds familiar. Like Hawaii, California Bear revolt, Texas revolution.

[surewhynat]

Again, not a post about Ukraine, but, ok ...

>Technically that’s true, but it’s important to remember the protest was peaceful for couple months. Then police started the violence. People have a right of self-defense.

Violent protest is not the answer, not when they had an election coming up very soon.

> Despite Ukraine have been fighting Russian army for almost 5 years now, what you’re saying is not true:

Millions of people have fled the country to work abroad in countries like Poland and Russia, among other countries in Western Europe. The common people do not have enough money to pay their gas bills, to pay for their heating in brutal winters. Your graph displaying some growth "per capita growth", have a look at this graph showing the value of their currency

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=UAH&to=USD&view=10Y

In terms of socially, absolutely it is worse. No one can afford to buy any import goods. There are dozens of reports of mass emigration, and the people that stay now almost all own guns in fear. You can't tell me that this is socially better than how Ukraine was before the revolution.

>Not true. Ukraine is near the median, doing better than India or Philippines:

Ukraine was a developed nation. It had all the potential to be a manufacturing and tech powerhouse. It was a country filled with brilliant minds, engineers and hardworking people. Many of which have now fled the country. If you seriously want to compare Ukraine to India (where they don't have access to clean water or sanitation) and make that the bar for Ukraine then this discussion with you truly is fruitless.

>Neither of that is true. The “separatists” for the “separatists movement” were Russian military personnel or special forces. The war ain’t civil, there’re tons of factual evidence of direct Russian army involvement.

I think it's pretty clear that the Donbass separatists are backed with Russian aid. No one is disputing that. But it is not Russian Military doing the fighting, which is a difference.

It's the people of the Donbass fighting for their own rights. The people on the front lines are people of the Donbass. USA sends military personnel to train the Ukrainian Army, and Russia probably trains people of the Donbass as well. At the end of the day it's the people of the Donbass on the front lines fighting for their rights.

This tit for tat argument needs to end. Seriously, people in Ukraine are so much worse off today than they were before the revolution.

[Const-me]

> Violent protest is not the answer

Too bad the old Ukrainian government didn’t know it, and started to use violence against it’s own people.

> Millions of people have fled the country to work abroad

The economy is global, air travel is cheap, Internet simplified things a lot. Ukraine is no exception. Globally, 258 million people, myself included, are living outside their country of birth.

> Your graph displaying some growth "per capita growth", have a look at this graph showing the value of their currency

That graph is in USD after adjustments for purchasing power. Currency exchange rates are irrelevant.

> No one can afford to buy any import goods

In 2018, Ukraine has imported goods worth 56 billion USD, smartphones alone were just under $1B: http://www.worldstopexports.com/ukraines-top-10-imports/

> There are dozens of reports of mass emigration

There’s no mass emigration, net migration is around zero: https://blogs.elenasmodels.com/en/ukrstat-migration-statisti...

> But it is not Russian Military doing the fighting

Russians started the war, and they did the fighting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Strelkov_(officer) Their armed forces are still there. It doesn’t matter they deny that, way too much documentary evidence of their direct involvement, for instance read links from that article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_intervention_...

[surewhynat]

You're now fighting with me on two different conversation threads, what seems like just for the sake of fighting at this point.

Violent protest is always greeted with crowd control. In Every Country. You seem to be forgetting that the Ukrainian population caused a revolution, instead of waiting for the election for a few more months.

Have a look at the violence from protestors just before it all fell apart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stK3YPz6WTc

The people are worse off today than they were before. Not everyone supported their revolution, and you can deny that all you want, but, the people in the Donbass don't want to be a part of the circus that is Ukraine in its current state.

> Currency exchange rates are irrelevant.

Clearly I'm beating a dead horse. I don't know where to begin explaining to you that currency is not irrelevant.

About the mass emigration, these are people who have not filed for citizenship with other countries because in a lot of circumstances they cannot. No one is coming to Ukraine looking at it as a desirable place to live at the moment. There are less jobs in Ukraine, there is less trade in Ukraine, people have no choice but to work abroad.

Yes, I am also aware of the cases of some defected ex-Russian military helping the Donbass fighters, but, again you keep ignoring the fact that 99% of the population enlisted in fighting are citizens of the Donbass...

How can you honestly argue that the status quo is better than it was before the revolution? What are you even arguing?