[ogre_codes]

I was very disappointed that the author's idea of Catastrophic was far less interesting than what I pictured in my head.

It's definitely not the only time an expensive car has failed in the first 6,000 miles of use. Also, the author's assumption that ICE cars don't fail while parked is a bit of hairsplitting. This isn't much different from any of the dozen or so times I've driven somewhere and discovered my car won't start when I go to leave.

[teachrdan]

I am honestly surprised by your blasé reaction. To make an apples to apples comparison, have you ever had a:

1. New car,

2. Which cost almost $60,000, with

3. Fewer than 6000 miles,

4. Suffer a catastrophic failure (i.e. couldn't start with a jump),

5. While parked,

6. And had the manufacturer not communicate the source of failure,

7. Or how long it would take to fix?

That, to me, seems almost unbelievable. I have entertained the idea that our family's next car would be a Tesla, but stories like this make me want to wait another generation or longer.

[dkoston]

I bought a VW GTI 20th anniversary (a numbered car) and the transmission broke on my third drive (wouldn’t shift out of third) which was a catastrophic failure. This was about 50 miles deep. Took a few hours to get towed. VW said they would fly in an expert from Germany to diagnose the issue. I opted to get a different car (new number, same model) and that one worked fine. Did I have massive ill will towards VW? no. This was even a numbered car that technically “could not be replaced”. Errors happen.

Statistically, a few hundred thousand model 3s have been delivered and many are well past 6k miles. I think you should wait and hear what Tesla’s reaction is before writing them off.

Things you should consider are:

- they have sold so many cars in the past 2 years that service center growth is struggling to keep up and wait times are long

- Tesla vehicles cannot be serviced easily by third parties so you have no option if Tesla says something you don’t like or wait times are long

Choosing the one broken car out of hundreds of thousands delivered as a reason to not buy one doesn’t make much sense. All manufacturers deliver defective vehicles. Looking at statistics on how many are defective per capita from each manufacturer would be a more reasonable course of action.

[m463]

I disagree with your reaction.

With any another car, the car would fail to start with a generic idiot light. You would then arrange to drop it with the dealer with no expectation of diagnosis on the spot. Later they would call you up and let you know.

No manufacturer is immune to problems, even with very new cars.

In this case the major difference is the car proactively notified the owner of the problem.

[fgonzag]

Most cars will limp to the dealer (except BMWs but they get as much flak as teslas for the behavior).

Most cars will absolutely not die while parked or turned off (I'm sure some will, but it won't be a common occurrence).

Most luxury brands will offer full service and a loaner (this is a 57k vehicle, well into M3/RS4/Porsche/AMG territory, which are considered premium vehicles on already luxury brands)

[m463]

wrt limping...

It's interesting that Tesla says this about the dual-motor version:

> Tesla All-Wheel Drive has two independent motors.

...

> Your car can drive on either motor, so you never need to worry about getting stuck on the road. If one motor stops working, you can safely continue to your destination with the second.

[Dylan16807]

> With any another car, the car would fail to start with a generic idiot light.

Why do you think that? I think it's most likely that a normal car would still start, possibly needing jumper cables if there are battery issues.

[rstuart4133]

One example doesn't tell you much.

This week a local freeway was shut down when a driver travelling down it noticed smoke coming out of the air-conditioning. He started to slow down, but then it caught alight. The scary thing was fire took hold so quickly he suffered burns before he could get out. That is the only time I've read about such a thing in the mass media. Which is an interesting statistic in itself - because I heard anecdotes about others peoples cars catching on fire while they were driving them several times. This particular time it shut down an inner city free way for a few hours - so it made the news.

And so it will be with this particular failure. I'm sure the only reason we heard about it is because it's a Tesla. Modern internal combustion engines are entirely computer controlled. They are far more complex to control that battery + electric motor, so the computer systems and sensor networks they have are commensurately more complex. They will not be going anywhere if that computer system fails - jump start or no jump start, so this sort of failure is not peculiar to EV's. Given the millions of cars out there I have absolutely no doubt coming back to a parked car only to discover the ECU has failed has happened many times. I also have absolutely no doubt I would not have heard about it. After all no one died, and "car won't start" is hardly news worthy unless it is a Tesla.

It may be there is a systemic fault with Tesla's - but there is no way you can tell from this one blog post. As for the bad dealer - I'm sort of surprised you think it is somehow exceptional.

[ogre_codes]

How many tens of thousands of Tesla Model 3s have been sold?

That ONE Tesla failed with fewer than 6,000 miles is not surprising or remotely concerning.

No, I haven't had a car fail with fewer than 6,000 miles. But if I'd bought a Model 3, that would almost certainly still be the case as well because of the tens of thousands sold to date this appears to be fairly uncommon or we'd have heard about it by now.

I'm not certain what the big deal about it failing "While Parked" is. A breakdown is a breakdown.

[aaomidi]

It might be that we're not hearing about other cases.

I have around 20K miles on my Model 3 and so far haven't dealt with any service/maintenance. I took the car to les schwab to make sure the tires are good, and that's been it.

Shit happens to cars, they're usually the most complicated piece of technology the average person owns. It takes time to perfect a production line and service line, but Tesla really needs to have a perfect support line and it's unfortunate they don't.

[Operyl]

I can't really believe we're not hearing about other cases. The media absolutely _loves_ to crap on Tesla any chance they can get for any reason, their fault or otherwise.

[romaaeterna]

> That ONE Tesla failed with fewer than 6,000 miles is not surprising or remotely concerning.

Yeah, it "just happened" to be one owned by Car and Driver. If they are seeing this sort of failure with review models, you can be sure that the real failure rate is big.

[ogre_codes]

How can I be sure? Why would the other owners keep quiet about it, some grand conspiracy?

Everything that happens with Tesla gets amplified 10 fold. If the failure rate was "big", I'm certain we'd have heard about it by now.

Regardless, this isn't a special review unit, C&D leased the Tesla from the dealer like any other schmuck, it was just luck of the draw. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29515368/tesla-model-3-lo...

[perl4ever]

"Everything that happens with Tesla gets amplified 10 fold"

Well, one reason people do that is because of the ridiculous things everybody has been saying for years - like how electric cars are inherently way more reliable than ICE vehicles.

It's like how certain people get enraged over short sellers influencing stock prices, and somehow it doesn't occur to them that way more information is distorted in favor of public companies.

And sure, there's no reason to think it was a special unit, but that's the best case, and it's not rational to assume the most likely case is the best.

[romaaeterna]

You misunderstand. Of course it wasn't "a special review unit". It was the randomly selected review unit.

As in any test methodology, if your random sample has problems, it's a bad sign for failure rates for the batch.

[hgoel]

Are these reviewers big enough in the industry for there to be any reason to assume they got a pre-tested vehicle? If not there's absolutely no indication that this failure suggests a higher overall failure rate.

[perl4ever]

I don't remember exactly how many miles it had, but I had a fairly new 2016 Honda Accord that had an electrical failure of some sort that left me stuck in a parking lot with a warning from the computer that the battery and alternator weren't working.

It is possible this, or the head gasket problem, was related to a previous warranty repair being done incorrectly - originally it had an internal engine problem, which did not leave me stranded but sounded terrible and scared me that the dealer would blame me and not honor the warranty.

And "coincidentally" I have read quite a few times recently that Honda is struggling with reliability in recent years.

I am probably not going to own a Honda again, but I would still be more comfortable with one than a Tesla simply because of the local dealer service.

[Robotbeat]

No, but any specific cherry-picked anecdote won't happen to more than a handful of people. That shouldn't be surprising.

(also, 1 and 3 are the same thing.)

[bryanlarsen]

Sure, just 2 weekends ago I tried to boost a friend's Highlander. A few more miles but otherwise met all conditions. They spent several hours on the phone with the help desk, but nobody could do anything on a Sunday. They ended up staying an extra night in the hotel without any sort of assurance it would be a quick fix the next day.

And yet Toyota is considered one of the good brands.

[teachrdan]

That's an interesting story, and I did some quick research to compare the two models. It looks like the Toyota Highlander sold almost twice as many cars in the US in 2019 (~219,000 vs ~114,000) and costs about $20,000 less for the most-expensive model. This is, in my opinion, not an apples to apples comparison.

I know most of us at HN--me included!--want Tesla to succeed, but I am again surprised that people are so quick to write off a brand new, low-mileage Model 3's catastrophic failure with no apparent cause. I have to wonder if it's because, when we saw the word "catastrophic" in the headline, we assumed it would be due to a battery catching fire, or autopilot steering the vehicle into a Jersey barrier.

Toyota Highlander sales figures: https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/toyota-highlander-sales-figure...

Tesla Model 3 sales figures: https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-model-3-sales-figures-us...

Price of top-end Highlander: https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+is+a+toyota+highlan...

[simonsarris]

> and costs about $20,000 less for the most-expensive model

That's not the price of the top-end Highlander, which is the AWD Platinum, which is $48,800 (without any options).

https://www.toyota.com/configurator/build/step/accessory/yea...

The highest priced Model 3 is the Performance, at $56,990 (before $1,875 tax credit)

[Marsymars]

Every time I see this kind of comparison I'm reminded of how little effort Tesla seems to make relative to other manufacturers to make their cars price-competitive in non-US markets.

Equivalent pricing for top-spec (non-hybrid) Highlander and Model 3 in Canada is $52,100 and $75,990, respectively.

[bigcloud1299]

My cousin drives Tesla model x, a friend and I drive model S.

We have not had any issues so far. Let’s not freak out at every Tesla is bad story.

Simply drive one and see how much it changes your life as it has mine. Then decide what’s good or bad for you.

Always remember doom and gloom stories sell more than successful ones.

[panpanna]

> Simply drive one and see how much it changes your life as it has mine.

Either you had a very boring life or you always talk like you are in a TV advert.

[m463]

They do drive themselves though.

[ariwilson]

I drove one. It felt like a car? Not sure what I was supposed to feel.

[yesplorer]

He's not the one saying it. The notification he received from tesla implied it.

If my car has suffered a failure and will no longer drive, I'm likely to consider that catastrophic as well, especially for such a new, expensive car.

[ogre_codes]

The other day my truck battery died while it was parked. I didn't describe it as a "Catastrophic failure while parked", I tell my friends "My truck didn't start".

My daughter's VW had trouble and the engine died while she was doing 70 miles an hour. She pulled over, got out and watched it burn to the ground in front of her. I'm not even sure I'd call that a catastrophic failure, but it's a lot closer.

When I hear something is catastrophic, I expect it to be more interesting/ impactful than a failure to move.

I was mostly being tongue in cheek in my original comment, but seriously, what happened is his car wouldn't start and had to be serviced. If this were any other make/ model of car it wouldn't be a story.

[nerdwaller]

The difference to me of the Model 3 not being able to start and an ICE car, is there’s a nonzero chance one (either alone or with help) can get back on the road in the latter.