[monoideism]

"right now, there are very few people, perhaps only dozens, for whom this phone is the right phone, given the current level of software support."

I think he greatly underestimates the number of people with the interest and ability to do this kind of work. If it's easily available, I'll probably get one and hack on it, and maybe contribute to some projects. And I'm far from something special or unusual.

[blihp]

You're right that the actual number is too low. But I think he, and Pine64, are just being responsible in managing expectations. The issue isn't just that the software isn't done, but also that the hardware may not be 100% there yet. This happens all the time with devices when something along the lines of 'oh crap, this power rail isn't stable in situation X and causes the device to reset' is discovered with pre-production hardware. The fix is usually trivial but often requires a PCB/component change.

I would absolutely have ordered one already if it sounded like the hardware were final... right now it merely sounds very, very close. The message I get from these warnings is the non-zero chance that there will be some annoying hardware issue that comes to light before going into volume production. This would not be unexpected since this is the first time a wider community is getting to work with it.

[newscracker]

From personal experience, if the original Pine64 board is anything to go by, I wouldn't expect much on software and software updates from Pine itself (it would be up to the user to figure things out).

[ssivark]

The following sentence "I am not using it as my daily driver, and I won’t for some time." and "the right phone" make me think that the dozens refer to those who might use this as their singular phone device. I'm sure many more people can afford to splurge on such a device and either play with it, or even forget about it for that matter.

[thinkmassive]

This is why I ordered the Brave Heart edition as soon as it was available. I'd rather get it in my hands quickly, customize the software to my liking, and if I have to buy a second device to resolve some hardware issues later this year then I'm still only out 1/4 the cost of a new iPhone, plus I have a backup device for development.

I prefer going into it with the expectation of it being a "developer experience" rather than a prepackaged end-to-end solution. This, and the cost, is why I opted to go with Pine Phone over Purism Librem 5.

[dustfinger]

> This, and the cost, is why I opted to go with Pine Phone over Purism Librem 5

I am now considering purchasing a Pine Phone and the cost is definitely motivating. I only wish that the PinePhone had hardware kill switches like the Librem 5 has.

[thinkmassive]

The PinePhone actually has more kill switches for finer grained control, but they’re behind the rear cover instead of exposed on the side.

PP: modem, WiFi, microphones, rear camera, front camera

L5: modem, WiFi, cameras+audio

Check out this comparison by Martijn Braam, a developer of postmarketOS: https://tuxphones.com/yet-another-librem-5-and-pinephone-lin...

[dustfinger]

I did it again. I made the assumption that the PinePhone has no way of killing the GPS. In fact, this is incorrect. According to the PinePhone wiki [1] the hardware killswitch for the modem also kills the GPS:

> Modem: On enables 2G/3G/4G communication and GNSS hardware, off disables.

That is because the GPS is bundled with the modem.

> GNSS: GPS/GLONASS/BeiDou/Galileo/QZSS, with A-GPS

The PinePhone sounds great!

[1]: https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone#Killswitch_confi...

[dustfinger]

Thank you,

I shouldn't have just made the assumption that the PinePhone lacked kill switches. I like the fact that the PinePhone kill switches are hidden behind the back cover. It seems like kill switches on the outside might easily be switched by mistake. I also like that the PinePhone kill switches allows greater granularity, since it has six switches, allowing the cameras and microphone to be killed independently. On the other-hand, I really like that the Librem5 kill switches can cut the GPS. Of course, all three have to be switched to accomplish that, but it is still nice to have the option.

Both phones use a Qualcomm modem that is black boxed and connected via the USB so that the phones do not have to deal with the firmware. The downside of this approach is that, I am assuming again, the firmware can't be updated for the modem. So a vulnerability found in the modem's firmware would not be patchable. However; the Librem 5 modem is replaceable.

[mr__y]

This. It may not (yet) be suitable for every-day use, but it is absolutely great for pet-projects or some tinkering. Also I would love to see enthusiasts creating alternative ecosystem around this, like open, federated social networking apps or maybe something with mesh-network support and hackernews reader app (of course). It won't get mainstream in general public, but could be sort-of mainstream among groups of open/free-everything enthusiasts.

[pjmlp]

The countless commercial failures of such projects since OpenMoko proves otherwise.

[catdog]

I think the PinePhone can be different because

1. The thing is reasonably cheap with "good enough" specs which makes it far easier to just buy it and accept that it may be just a toy in the worst case.

2. It's likely that the specs will be "good enough" for some time so the Hardware will not be terribly outdated the time the Software reaches a usable state.

3. Smartphone hardware and manufacturing matured a lot in general so it's likely easier to get sth. working with a limited budget. In comparison the Openmoko devices were reasonably advanced for their time but were also ridden by hardware bugs.

[realusername]

I see the PinePhone as a Raspberry Pi equivalent in the Smartphone world, there's definitely a big niche for that.

[moksly]

You don’t need your Raspberry PI to run your bank app, handle your payments or your bus-tickets. I’m not sure how I’d even purchase a non digital ticket for quite a few things in Denmark.

Don’t get me wrong, I really hope something like PinePhone sees enough adoption to get the apps I need a smartphone to run so I can break away from the two monopolies. I just don’t believe it will happen when Microsoft couldn’t do it.

[Erlich_Bachman]

Microsoft couldn't do it because everyone new (of the users) that even if they put in their effort to switch and wait for the ecosystem to grow, they will end up with just the same crap: another closed-source monopoly with it's own quirks. We won't have just two overlords, but instead 3 of the same. Wow such a difference...

Now an truly open system might make a difference. Not saying it will, it has it's own problems, but comparing it to Windows Phone is not really apples to apples.

[rasvj]

You overestimate how many people care about whether something is open or closed source.

I had a Windows Phone. It was bad. Even Microsoft apps were subpar. Skype app was simply unusable. They weren't dogfooding.

Also Google torpedoed it.

[asveikau]

The third party app platform was pretty slow and missing a lot of APIs relative to the others. The first party UI, which got praise from reviewers for being smooth, was written in a different language and framework.

In the first version, the default blank app from Visual Studio's "new project" wizard was slow to load. I think I measured it on the order of 500ms at the time. Not much room for third parties to add more stuff without being slow.

[wiz21c]

The only question I'd ask is : how many phones should they sell to break even ? Cos if they actually make some profit, that's just fine. Maybe they don't aim to go to mass market. And that's why MSFT may have failed : they tried to fight on Google's ground, head to head. Of course Pine can't do that. So if they just repeat what's been done for Raspberry, that's just great enough to have a living ecosystem.

I personaly just need SMS, voice and a browser. The rest, I can live without it (or program it :-)

[alpaca128]

In my opinion Windows Phone 8 is still far ahead of Android in terms of usability. It has at least 3 features I wish Google would just copy.

Pretty much all the apps were bad though, I agree. Even the official OneNote app was a joke compared to the Android version.

[dmitriid]

You greatly overestimate the number of users who care about how closed or how open an ecosystem is.

If the user can't interact with their bank, whatchu YouTube, talk to their friends and parents over Snapchat or Skype, call Uber, play Spotify, etc etc etc, it doesn't matter in the least if your phone is 100% open source.

Microsoft had sunk billions into trying to get the ecosystem off the ground. What makes you think that "a truly open system" will get that ecosystem?

[thekyle]

> If the user can't interact with their bank, whatchu YouTube, talk to their friends and parents over Snapchat or Skype, call Uber, play Spotify, etc etc etc, it doesn't matter in the least if your phone is 100% open source.

Most of this should be available on the PinePhone at launch (albeit not as nicely as on Android).

Bank - should have a website (and if they don't have a website they most likely don't have an app anyway)

YouTube - website again (youtube.com)

Skype - has a web app and a Electron app available for Linux (web.skype.com)

Uber - has a PWA that can be used for booking rides (m.uber.com)

Spotify - has a web app and a Electron app available for Linux (open.spotify.com)

[valvar]

The target audience isn't people who need to use Skype, Snapchat, or Uber. But I'm sure it will be possible to run some of those android apps through anbox. Spotify has a Linux client, and for YouTube there's the FreeTube client, which actually protects users' integrity.

[unionpivo]

it doesn't have to.

All it really needs to do is make calls and have good browser (Firefox would do). Signal would be a nice bonus.

This might not be enough for all (i am sure it wont), but for me and several other people I know, it would be enough, to be our main phone.

[thenewnewguy]

People on HN seem to hate them, but honestly progressive web apps have potential to solve most/all of those usecases.

[zdkl]

(Hopefully) Ease and flexibility of development for 3rd party applications?

[afandian]

So how do people without phones participate in society? I don't use a google account on my phone, so that means no App Store. I'm trying to one day get rid of my google account too. It doesn't cause me many issues in the UK though I can't use things like Uber, and that's no loss to me.

How would I get on in Denmark?

[pjc50]

The UK government "settled status" application procedure for EU nationals resident after Brexit was only available as an Android app. Otherwise you had to apply in person at a specific site.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/03/mps-slam-an...

[rwmj]

It should have been a website. Why on earth was it an app? Presumably so it could spy on the other data on your phone.

[rvense]

There are a few things you cannot do. In some areas of Copenhagen you can't pay for parking without an app, I'm told (but I don't drive so I don't know for sure).

The biggest mobile-only thing is an app called MobilePay which is used mostly for person-to-person transfers, and a lot of people don't use cash at all anymore. I am starting to see classified ads that specify "MobilePay only", although I guess you could usually convince people to accept a bank transfer instead. A lot of shops also accept it, but there is a law that shops have to accept cash, but some places don't respect it. Very few shops don't accept credit cards, but these generally also like cash...

As for digitization in general, all communication with the municipality and state and things like your bank and insurance company is digital. You're required by law to have a bank account and to have it associated with your personal ID number (all Danish residents are tagged with their birthday + 4 digit code in the Central Person Register). This all goes via a website that works with all browsers, though, but I wouldn't be surprised if down the line some features started being smartphone/app store only.

[rsync]

"There are a few things you cannot do. In some areas of Copenhagen you can't pay for parking without an app, I'm told (but I don't drive so I don't know for sure)."

What are the permissions granted to these apps ?

Do they, as I fear, "require" full access to all contacts, all photos, location data ... ?

[Mashimo]

> So how do people without phones participate in society?

It's not super hard. Until ~3'ish years ago I did not have a smartphone here in DK. Life is just so much easier with it.

I think they got rid of the 10x Bus ticket you would buy at a kiosk, so now you have to buy a single tickets with coins inside the bus. (depends on the city) Which means you need cash. DK society is very much cashless, I mostly see older people still using it.

Is the bus late or did you just miss it? Check the app to see the bus location.

Train Ticket? Now you have to print that out or buy it at the station. It's so easy to search, buy and show the ticket via the app.

Letter from most public authorities / government? There is an app for that. Or website.

Want to give your mate some money? -> MobilePay app. Now you have to get cash somewhere and convince him to take cash. Or go to a computer and transfer it. Which requires more information then just this number and takes longer.

[Aenyn]

Just buying a rejsekort (travel card - you put some money on it at some machine with your credit card and it pays automatically when you check out at the end of your trip. It also has a significant discount vs buying individual tickets) solve all the problems for buses, trains, metro, etc. You can also put your commuter card on it if you want, or you can receive a commuter card by text message which would even work with a dumb phone.

But it certainly helps a lot to have a smartphone, mainly for the government messages and the nem id app.

[afandian]

Sounds like Sweden. About 10 years ago I was very surprised to be able to pay for a bus journey using my (foreign) debit card. Now it's normal in the UK. And I have Swedish friends who have never seen the newly issued currency.

Crazy but it's the future. It's just a shame that it's gatekept by unaccountable duopolies such as Google...

[buckminster]

According to the Lloyds website they (and other UK banks) are going to start sending an auth code to your phone as part of the web logon. Though I believe you can ask them to send you a security gadget as an alternative. It is a PITA though.

[rchaud]

I'm in Canada and access Uber via their PWA. m.uber.com I think, I just did the "add to home screen" thing and it launches as a fullscreen web app. No need to have the app installed.

[realusername]

It has its own issues indeed, I don't deny that. But that used to be the same for Ubuntu when the Windows-only culture was at its highest. People who want this phone will use workarounds, custom apps, anbox or just web apps.

[toast0]

It wasn't that Microsoft couldn't do it, it's that they chose not to.

Through all of Windows phone 7, 8 and 8.1, the devices that were selling were low end devices -- things like the Lumia 520, especially in markets with more cost sensitivity. Because of software architecture differences, windows phone was often more responsive than android on bottom of the market phones, and that drove sales. But when it came time to release Windows Mobile 10, there were no low end phones.

Having to build out essentially three flavors of your app (one for 7, one for 8, and a 'universal' app for 10) isn't a great way to keep developers engaged either.

[blackearl]

That's the point. You have a real computer, then you have a rpi to play with, do some hobby work around it, etc. If you're buying it as an analog to some flagship phone, don't.

[Hamuko]

I mostly see Raspberry Pis being used for embedded devices, for automation, lightweight servers, etc. What would the PinePhone be used for?

[wjoe]

I could see it being used for specific usage handheld devices. For example where I work, we sell train tickets and ship cheap Android phones with an app installed for tain conductors to scan the ticket barcodes. Something like this could be done with some "generic cheap Linux device with a touchscreen and mobile connection" locked down to a custom built app.

Not sure if that ends up being cost effective considering how cheap you can get low-end Android phones these days, and how easy it is to find Android developers, but I'm sure there are some applications along those lines that would be well suited for the equivalent of "a Raspberry Pi with a touchscreen and smaller form factor".

[lern_too_spel]

Openmoko sold 13000 phones, which is much more than "dozens." Commercial failure does not necessarily mean you can fit all the customers in a room.

[dorfsmay]

Mine was unusable until I installed Android, at which point I bought an Android phone a quarter of the thickness and mass, and better screen resolution (and likely better radios as well).

I too bought it because I thought I'd hack around and "maybe contribute" which quickly turn in "why am I wasting so much time on something that will probably never work".

[Tepix]

The screen resolution of the OpenMoko was very good at the time: It had a 640x480 2.8" screen which means a very good 286ppi.

[Mashimo]

Got one. Never really used it. It was not reliable.

[seba_dos1]

Got one. Used it for a few years. It was amazing (though not without its quirks of course).

[dzypa]

For most people "quirks" are unacceptable in their mobile phones. Normally one can't afford to lose a call or to have the maps application crash when you're trying to get around.

[TylerE]

13k is a rounding error. Apple sells that many iphones every 30 minutes. (I'm not kidding... they sell 217M iPhones a year = 594k a day = 24.9k/hr)

[bildung]

This is about open source phones, of which Apple has sold exactly zero.

[dmitriid]

This makes open source phone cheaper to produce? Cheaper to ship?

13k phones won't cover even the costs of production, much less R&D

[squarefoot]

Give FOSS phones the same media coverage of the iPhone, possibly including its ad induced reality distortion field, and they will sell like candies.

Seriously, once the software is ready, 30 seconds of any popular celebrity showing one would make it sell hundreds thousands in a week. Problem is the small manufacturers couldn't either pay for that level of advertising or satisfy the demand without turning themselves into what they're fighting against now (venture capital, investors etc. don't come free), so I welcome numbers as small as 13k or even much less if that means the product isn't polluted by the typical corporate mindset (close as much as possible to protect intellectual property, make it obsolete sooner to sell newer models, etc).

Oh and by having an unusual phone I can also play the elitist bastard with friends:*)

[lostgame]

Not sure why this is being downvoted? It’s a fascinating statistic alone.

[paulcole]

During Q4 of 2018, Apple sold something like 20,000 iPhones an hour. 13k is an order of magnitude too low to be considered a commercial failure.

[Mathnerd314]

OpenMoko isn't really dead, or at least the kernel isn't: http://git.goldelico.com/?p=letux-kernel.git;a=summary

Netscape was a commercial failure but Mozilla is still around. Similarly Blender only went open-source after a crowdfunding campaign.

CyanogenMod is another interesting example, mostly open source and mostly successful until it started trying to commercialize the code.

I think the community ends up being a big part of it. It's not like every PinePhone shipped is going to result in another developer for the OS, but there is some critical mass point where the software goes from broken to usable and it seems PinePhone might be getting there.

[Mashimo]

Hol up .. I have a OpenMoko. Never really used. I can install linux with an up to date Kernel on it? Neat. I wonder what I can do with it.

[Fnoord]

CyanogenMod lives on, in the form of LineageOS.

[heavyset_go]

It's becoming easier and easier to develop new products in this space. Hell, there are a few "open source" phone projects out there that are just white label products imported from China.

The first Neo phone was released a year before the first Android smartphone even hit the market. It's a bit unfair to compare these new projects with something like OpenMoko.

[jcelerier]

> And I'm far from something special or unusual.

from my experience, the "average" person (if not the majority) has trouble handling a TV remote

[Tepix]

That may be true but there are still plenty of people who are able to hack on a developer Linux phone. Far more than a few dozen.

[dqpb]

To be fair, TV remotes are terrible interfaces.

[rwmj]

I dual booted into DOS and Windows 3.1 for a long time after I first installed Linux. I would see a similar situation if I used a stock smartphone and had a free phone, I might use them interchangably for years before switching, but it would still be worthwhile.

[saagarjha]

Would you use it as your daily driver?

[jmiskovic]

An open internet-connected battery-powered computing device that looks great and can easily fit in pocket? I would gladly carry it along regardless of its phone functionalities. It looks perfect as smart remote for automating stuff around me, maybe one day even as voice-enabled personal assistant device.

[monoideism]

No, and he says he isn't either. So that's not a distinguisher.

[gbear605]

I’m not sure he’s including himself in that dozen who this is the right phone for.