[dgzl]

I chatted with a rep last night and they were very responsive, said "our managers are listening to customer feedback."

Don't forget, Black Diamond laid off much of the Utah engineering staff and their climbing cams will now be made in China... Not sure what other gear is taking that fate. Looks like it's Metolious Master Cams for me now.

[ISL]

Did BD re-offshore things? At one point, they were bringing manufacturing back to the US after QC issues.

Answering my own question: looks like it. They brought it back in 2015 and are going back overseas in 2019.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2400138/black-diamond-layoffs-...

https://companyweek.com/articles/as-black-diamond-bolts-to-c...

[jschwartzi]

That's crazy. China loves to replace parts with "equivalent materials." My employer has been spending the last 3 months resolving Chinese QC issues with metal fabrication such as ignoring critical tolerances or broken welds. Considering how devastating it would be for a carabiner or ice axe to fail in the field it would be hard for me to trust outsourced manufacturing.

[Loughla]

It's everything. Literally everything. It's what I believe is going to hold up Chinese manufacturing, regardless of how much better it is now compared to the 90's or early 2000's.

As another example - Jorgenson Pony clamps were made in Chicago until they closed down (like 15 years ago). They're the gold standard for woodworking clamps. Solid as a rock. The company announced they were re-making clamps. In China. At the world's largest clamp making plant.

They're garbage now. Materials are cheaper. The QC is nowhere near as good as they used to be. The price is more, even adjusted for inflation, than what they were when they were Chicago made - because people are buying the trusted brand name and getting burned for it.

It's just sad. I can't imagine that I would ever trust something like climbing gear to outsourcing. No thanks.

[rhizome]

>It's what I believe is going to hold up Chinese manufacturing

What sense of "hold up" are you using here, "support" or "delay?"

[CydeWeys]

"Impede" is the way the word is being used; see definition 2 of the verb here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/holdup

[Loughla]

Correct

[dwoozle]

This is highly rational behavior for hired CEOs — you’re there for 5-10 years and paid based on stock price, so it’s in your best interest to sell shoddy products under the venerable brand name in the highest quantities possible, and cash out before the market discovers that your brand name is worthless (cf all of the venerable kitchen brands like All-Clad and Wusthof that now have Chinese junk lines).

This is why the father to son family business model may prove more enduring.

[reaperducer]

All the CEO's care about is next quarter. Five or ten years isn't even on the radar at most companies anymore.

[alasdair_]

>All the CEO's care about is next quarter. Five or ten years isn't even on the radar at most companies anymore.

If their comp package is weighted towards the five year term, they absolutely care about five years from now.

[dwoozle]

Yeah, they trash the brand for a few quarters of returns and ride off into the sunset.

[burkaman]

I always thought this was a weird definition of "rational". If you're already rich, which I assume most hired CEOs are, why is prioritizing money over people a more rational decision? Is that money going to change their life in any meaningful way? Is it any less correct to say it's in their best interest to stop working as soon as they have enough money to live comfortably for the rest of their life, to minimize stress and maximize lifetime?

I understand that it's rational behavior for someone driven exclusively by money, but that's an important qualification. Most people are not money robots, so they aren't given these jobs.

[orclev]

It's the corporate structure. The CEO either grows the year over year profits or he gets punished/fired by the board. Boards pick CEOs based on a history of delivering growth at any cost (this is one of the irrational decisions, they should prioritize long term growth over short term, but they rarely do). This in turn provides a strong incentive to CEOs to make bad long term decisions if it means short term gains, because they either won't be around to see the eventual collapse (having moved on to another CEO position) or else they take the long term plan and get fired by the board for not providing enough growth (or worse, reduction).

[bsder]

> If you're already rich, which I assume most hired CEOs are, why is prioritizing money over people a more rational decision?

Generally, a non-founder CEO is a ferociously competitive person--probably to the point of being pathological. They often "play poker" in situations where there is very little upside to doing so.

Great salespeople are often the same way, they simply can't turn it off.

You are asking a leopard to change his spots after he has started eating the antelope.

[ajnin]

I really dislike this kind of reasoning. Saying this is "highly rational" is saying the only value is money. Everything else can be set aside if it leads to more money. Even if people get hurt or worse using shoddy equipment. There is no place for empathy, at a sociopathic level. I'd think that a few millennia of civilization would give more value to notions of altruism, honesty, not constantly trying to scam your fellow man.

[_jal]

It is "highly rational" in the sense that success at their chosen career means hitting financial targets defined over short time periods.

The behavior won't change until the incentives do.

[ip26]

Yes, but we already know these positions tend to select for mildly sociopathic behavior in the first place...

[jschwartzi]

This is a sort of "Ayn Rand'ian" rationality in which the only thing that matters is what you're getting out of the deal independently of how devoid of empathy your worldview is.

[catalogia]

The way it's been explained to me is that it's proportional to how much money you're spending. If you think you're getting a great deal from the Chinese, then the Chinese think it's reasonable to rip you off.

Whereas a manufacture in another country might say: "For that little money, I won't do the job.", in China the answer is more like "For that little money, I'll do the job [but I'm going to rip you off, and for how little you're paying, you should already know you're going to get ripped off.]"

[ddingus]

This is super interesting. The idea, "someone is always willing to make the money" is playing out in this unexpected way!

Got any links for a person to learn more about this cultural difference?

[DenisM]

Any details about veracity? It’s the first I hear of it, and it’s rather interesting.

[catalogia]

Unfortunately I don't have more details; it's something I heard a few years ago from a Chinese coworker. He was explaining that quality products can be produced in China, but you have to pay for that quality just like anywhere else. And it happens that when American companies outsource to China, they're often looking for the cheapest bidder.

[mbostleman]

“QC issues” are not a variable I want to consider In climbing gear.

[closetohome]

You couldn't pay me enough to climb on a Chinese-made belay device.

[jessaustin]

Coming next to backcountry: commingling.

Yes I have purchased climbing equipment on Amazon but I always felt bad about it.

[superhuzza]

Given how common Black Diamond equipment is, almost all climbers have been belayed with a Chinese made ATC, carabiner or quickdraw...

https://blog.weighmyrack.com/black-diamond-manufacturing-pro...

[dv_dt]

It’s also crazy given China trade talks right now. Seems like at least something to postpone a year or so. Or maybe they already feel they have the shutoff options covered.

[CydeWeys]

It seems like the liability issues here with life-critical equipment should make any lawyer put a hold on this idea, but apparently not?

[wsinks]

I recently bought a set of collapsable climbing poles from Black Diamond.

They broke on my first really long hike. 1/3 of the way into a 72 mile route..

[notadoc]

> Don't forget, Black Diamond laid off much of the Utah engineering staff and their climbing cams will now be made in China...

That might be why

[hombre_fatal]

How much engineering staff do you need to make some walking sticks?

[CydeWeys]

Black Diamond makes a lot more than just walking sticks. But even if that's all they made ..

You're seriously underestimating how hard it might to to engineer and test even something as seemingly simple as a walking stick. These are lightweight, high-tech materials we're talking about (carbon fiber), which even SpaceX gave up on for their latest spacecraft. They're also collapsible/foldable. Simply put, this is harder than you think it is.

[dfcagency]

How much engineering staff do you need to make a search engine?

[notadoc]

I have no idea, I've never made an artificial walking stick. Good strong wood is quite sturdy however, but not nearly as light as a synthetic walking stick. Trying to replicate the strength of a hard wood in a very lightweight synthetic material is probably a challenging engineering task.

Anyway I'd think production/manufacturing and quality assurance would be more to blame, particularly if the same products used to perform better than now.

[bsder]

Enough to keep your manufacturer from doing something stupid.

Designing the walking stick is simply the start. The problem is that you specified some really expensive materials with exotic manufacturing requirements that your supplier probably doesn't understand unless they are in aerospace.

Of course, aerospace manufacturers are ferociously expensive, and your customer can't really tell the difference if you are 1 or 2% less effective, but they can tell if you are 10% cheaper, so you start downgrading your manufacturing.

And then the problems start. The new manufacturer probably doesn't understand exotic materials as well, or they would be an aerospace supplier charging you more money. So, maybe they don't apply a cross layer, maybe they change the binding agent, maybe they use a cheaper material.

How do you, as the manufacturer, know?

You would have to put people on quality assurance analysis, but those are valuable engineers.

For a product that is $200. Max. For a company that has a revenue of roughly $100 million a year and basically no profit.

So, go find a company that charges $500-$1000 for your sticks and creates an actually good product, or suck it up and buy the Chinese crap.

[gregoryl]

They are about 150g per pole, so a fair bit I suspect.

[nathancahill]

Aluminum or carbon fiber? I'm betting carbon fiber, they are very lightweight but don't really hold up to use.

[emptyfile]

Meanwhile my Trail Pros have been a delight, by far the best aluminium poles I've ever bought. So yeah, I don't see what your anecdote proves.

[duskwuff]

> their climbing cams will now be made in China

I'm not sure if I see what's wrong with that. Like it or not, electronics manufacturing is centered around China and the APAC region. Trying to set up manufacturing outside that region, especially for a company that doesn't specialize in electronic goods, simply doesn't make sense.

[Forbo]

Slight correction, I believe they're referring to the rock climbing hardware, not cameras: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-loaded_camming_device

[duskwuff]

Oh! Okay, that makes more sense.

[dgzl]

Sorry I should have made that more clear haha