[sargram01]

You see this at startups too, middle eng management were actual engineers and as the startup grows career managers creep in and skew the alignment of the engineering departments away from engineering solutions, the “product” they make, to problems they understand instead, political jockeying, manipulation, appeasing the LCD and the next managerial rung above them.

[aphexairlines]

Your initial scenario is still flawed: "middle eng management were actual engineers." The problem is elevating management above other roles. At that point the course has been set.

[hinkley]

And they may know how to manage devs but they have very little change of being good at , which is what protects the dev team.

When the smooth talking suits show up and tell their pretty dictions, there aren’t enough people who know how to push back.

But where would you find these classically trained managers who haven’t drunk the Taylor koolaid?

[sargram01]

Yes, exactly, that’s the point I was trying to get at.

[ThalesX]

I’ve also had the misfortune of working with an early startup that as soon as it got a series A hired a team of career managers on board.

The product plummeted soon after, product market fit got lost as the direction became more and more political and by the end, the ones that came out on top and ready to move to their next venture were the managers that managed to tick their measurements and KPIs even though they were totally disconnected from the operational space.

But, they do wield weapons that us engineers often don’t have the time not desire to sharpen...

[sargram01]

> But, they do wield weapons that us engineers often don’t have the time not desire to sharpen...

Right, this is something more engineers need to get better at, this is nothing more than first year law school debating which is teachable. Seems like Management training for engineers should include this skill for good. Also having a backbone to fight too.

[ajeet_dhaliwal]

Yes, not unique to boeing, ive seen it in many places.