[lotsofpulp]

I find that people with lower incomes are free-er in other Western countries. They can go about their lives without worrying about healthcare, parents can bond and breastfeed for a year without stressing about work, families can go on vacations for multiple weeks, people aren’t as afraid of being abused or killed by police, etc.

[vbezhenar]

Why do you call that freedom? You can be in a good prison and live without doing anything, having good healthcare and food. But it's not freedom. Freedom is being able to do whatever you want. Some freedom might not be OK, for example freedom to kick other people or freedom to own slaves. Some freedom is good to have like freedom to shot thieves in your house.

[lotsofpulp]

No society is going to be able to offer freedom defined as "being able to do whatever you want".

I call it freedom because I see people exercising it. What is the point of a "freedom" if you can't afford to exercise it?

Are you free to send your children to play in sports if you're afraid that your child getting injured will financially ruin you? Are you free to participate in activities yourself if you're teetering on the edge and one unexpected expense will result in having to move out of a good school district, and result in significantly altering your child's chances of future success?

Are you free to participate in your community after you spend 90 min per day commuting after working an 8 to 10 hour day, resulting in nothing else than eating, saying hello-good night to the family, and going to bed?

Are you free to take care of your loved ones in case something should happen to them if you can't afford to go without a paycheck because there is no safety net?

But yes, I guess it is nice to take advantage of the minuscule chance that I'd be in a situation to have to shoot a thief.

[briandear]

You are free to make good decisions and bad ones.

[lotsofpulp]

Yes, most importantly, deciding to be born to good parents with a good family in good country in a good time period.

[vinay427]

Not the freedom I mean. I would say that people with lower incomes have better lives in other Western countries, but that's not the freedom from the government (at least on paper but probably in practice as well) that I meant.

[chacha2]

It's funny how when discussing freedom with an American they'll always insist the only measure that's really important is the one they excel in.

[vinay427]

Please don't be so presumptuous. First of all, I live in Europe. Second, I literally said that I think (at least) people with lower incomes have better lives in other Western countries. I really do mean freedom in the literal legal sense, and I don't think this is an important metric.

[lotsofpulp]

In the literal legal sense, the US courts ruled people don’t have rights against illegal search and seizure within 100 miles of a border or international airport.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception

There’s so many of these exceptions to “freedoms” in the US, namely that if you can’t afford to fight for your freedom, can you really be considered to have it?

I do appreciate for the most part, however, the US’s stance on free speech.

[vinay427]

I agree with all of this, and I really don't want to make it seem otherwise. The comment I originally replied to is about the 100 miles ruling, and I stated that it's "absurd."

[briandear]

That is not 100 miles from an airport, but 100 miles from the actual land border. Review the relevant law and court decisions. An airport isn’t a “land border.” It’s a border, but not a “land border.”

No law or case has successfully argued 100 miles from an international airport. That is just false information.

[saiya-jin]

In that case take a look into Switzerland - most probably the most free country in the world (most direct participation in government by regular citizens by frequent polls, tons of true personal freedom, huge gun ownership yet little criminality etc.).

I get where americans come from, and its still great place for many reasons, but for any western-european these statements are pretty weird. I guess if you are told since childhood you live in greatest country in the world, hollywood and politicians keeps playing the same tune over and over, it might feel like its true.

What we see is repressive police state outside anybody's control, sometimes properly evil government which is openly xenophobic (if you are not US citizen you mean nothing), being one serious illness away from utter bankrupcy, huge class divides that are getting bigger, biggest (private) prison state in the world, being caught with some weed in many places can still effectively ruin your professional life forever etc.

[rpmisms]

I can understand how you'd see that: let's go point by point.

> repressive police state outside anybody's control

Nah, mostly individual cops

> properly evil government which is openly xenophobic

No, we expect people to immigrate legally, and have less obligation to non-citizens. However, this can be countermanded with the sheer amount of military aid we provide for everyone.

>one serious illness away from utter bankrupcy

Yeah, that's the story, but it never seems to work out that way. In reality, people have safety nets, considerate bosses, savings, families, or any combination.

> huge class divides that are getting bigger

I guess? Nobody really pays attention to what the 1% are doing. Many of us are just enjoying the good job market and low taxes right now.

> biggest (private) prison state in the world

This is a serious problem, I agree

> being caught with some weed in many places can still effectively ruin your professional life forever etc

Yes, and? Being caught with a gun in Europe could also give you a criminal record. This is why we have different states. Someone wants to smoke before everyone makes it legal? Move!

[saiya-jin]

> In reality, people have safety nets, considerate bosses, savings, families, or any combination.

Yeah its great have one's saving wiped out by something that we in Europe just have our shared pool of resources covers for. So you only have to deal with (sometimes lifelong) consequences of some hard illness / accident, and you can continue your life unaffected financially and not compound misery and life getting significantly tougher.

THAT, my friend, is also freedom. We can call it freedom to be ill/have an accident. But don't expect any US politician / hollywood star to ever frame it that way.

[JasonFruit]

It could also be that America succeeds in providing the kind of freedom Americans insist is important.

[dsfyu404ed]

It's funny how when discussing freedom with a non-American they'll always insist the only measure that's really important is the one America does not excel in.

See how much nothing this adds to the discussion? You may as well say "your definition of freedom is wrong and mine is right".

[ekianjo]

The police does not kill you in most western countries because they are so useless at doing anything and don't even do their job of protecting people or going after criminals. the only metric they care about is fining people as much as possible for minor offenses.

[bildung]

The strength of a police force has only minimal predictive power regarding violent crime in a country.

The best known measure to lower violent crime is lowering inequality (e.g. progressive taxation paying for free education etc.): https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/06/07/the-star...

[FabHK]

The USA has higher crime rates (particularly homicide), despite much higher incarceration rates, than most of Europe.