[vinay427]

Not the freedom I mean. I would say that people with lower incomes have better lives in other Western countries, but that's not the freedom from the government (at least on paper but probably in practice as well) that I meant.

[chacha2]

It's funny how when discussing freedom with an American they'll always insist the only measure that's really important is the one they excel in.

[vinay427]

Please don't be so presumptuous. First of all, I live in Europe. Second, I literally said that I think (at least) people with lower incomes have better lives in other Western countries. I really do mean freedom in the literal legal sense, and I don't think this is an important metric.

[lotsofpulp]

In the literal legal sense, the US courts ruled people don’t have rights against illegal search and seizure within 100 miles of a border or international airport.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception

There’s so many of these exceptions to “freedoms” in the US, namely that if you can’t afford to fight for your freedom, can you really be considered to have it?

I do appreciate for the most part, however, the US’s stance on free speech.

[vinay427]

I agree with all of this, and I really don't want to make it seem otherwise. The comment I originally replied to is about the 100 miles ruling, and I stated that it's "absurd."

[briandear]

That is not 100 miles from an airport, but 100 miles from the actual land border. Review the relevant law and court decisions. An airport isn’t a “land border.” It’s a border, but not a “land border.”

No law or case has successfully argued 100 miles from an international airport. That is just false information.

[saiya-jin]

In that case take a look into Switzerland - most probably the most free country in the world (most direct participation in government by regular citizens by frequent polls, tons of true personal freedom, huge gun ownership yet little criminality etc.).

I get where americans come from, and its still great place for many reasons, but for any western-european these statements are pretty weird. I guess if you are told since childhood you live in greatest country in the world, hollywood and politicians keeps playing the same tune over and over, it might feel like its true.

What we see is repressive police state outside anybody's control, sometimes properly evil government which is openly xenophobic (if you are not US citizen you mean nothing), being one serious illness away from utter bankrupcy, huge class divides that are getting bigger, biggest (private) prison state in the world, being caught with some weed in many places can still effectively ruin your professional life forever etc.

[rpmisms]

I can understand how you'd see that: let's go point by point.

> repressive police state outside anybody's control

Nah, mostly individual cops

> properly evil government which is openly xenophobic

No, we expect people to immigrate legally, and have less obligation to non-citizens. However, this can be countermanded with the sheer amount of military aid we provide for everyone.

>one serious illness away from utter bankrupcy

Yeah, that's the story, but it never seems to work out that way. In reality, people have safety nets, considerate bosses, savings, families, or any combination.

> huge class divides that are getting bigger

I guess? Nobody really pays attention to what the 1% are doing. Many of us are just enjoying the good job market and low taxes right now.

> biggest (private) prison state in the world

This is a serious problem, I agree

> being caught with some weed in many places can still effectively ruin your professional life forever etc

Yes, and? Being caught with a gun in Europe could also give you a criminal record. This is why we have different states. Someone wants to smoke before everyone makes it legal? Move!

[saiya-jin]

> In reality, people have safety nets, considerate bosses, savings, families, or any combination.

Yeah its great have one's saving wiped out by something that we in Europe just have our shared pool of resources covers for. So you only have to deal with (sometimes lifelong) consequences of some hard illness / accident, and you can continue your life unaffected financially and not compound misery and life getting significantly tougher.

THAT, my friend, is also freedom. We can call it freedom to be ill/have an accident. But don't expect any US politician / hollywood star to ever frame it that way.

[rpmisms]

Plenty of politicians talk about it here. Currently, we have some of the best quality healthcare in the world, and it's also the most expensive. Trying to make it all single-payer would be...interesting, to say the least. It's a complex issue

[JasonFruit]

It could also be that America succeeds in providing the kind of freedom Americans insist is important.

[dsfyu404ed]

It's funny how when discussing freedom with a non-American they'll always insist the only measure that's really important is the one America does not excel in.

See how much nothing this adds to the discussion? You may as well say "your definition of freedom is wrong and mine is right".