[scilro]

>Now she is thinking of giving up the citizenship she worked so hard to get, and moving back to an authoritarian China where guns and drugs are strictly forbidden – at least her son would be safe.

To quote a friend, "all 'authoritarian' states (really, all states) distribute their 'authoritarianism' unevenly. that you aren't experiencing any right now doesn't mean it isn't being done, it just means you're not part of the demographic being targeted."

The commonly understood definition of "authoritarian" is pretty insufficient, since it doesn't capture non-state actors exercising authority, control or violence over your life.

[pjc50]

Indeed. This was highlighted in the overthrow of Iraq. It was undoubtedly an authoritarian state where dissenters and minorities were murdered. However, non-dissenters from the ethnic majority were largely free to go about their business. The destruction of the state made the place entirely unsafe, with an interruption of basic food, medical and energy supplies.

The invasion happened in March 2003. Sixteen years later the country is still at war at the edges, as part of the larger Syrian civil war. Car bombs still happen in cities.

China appears to have chosen safety over freedom. The outcome is horrendous for minorities (Uighur etc), but for the majority?

(By comparison, the Chinese civil war's combat period lasted about nine years, with a wikipedia death toll of about nine million people. The war is still not formally concluded.)

[luckylion]

Minor correction about Iraq: ethnicity isn't that big a deal, religion is. Saddam and his government were Sunni muslims, the majority (2:1) are Shiite (both are predominately Arabs), with other tiny minorities making up the rest (Kurdish, Yezidi etc).

[jacobush]

Yeah, I've heard that too, but I wonder... religion is not something you easily switch between families, and families run deep and old.

I am more familiar with Yugoslavia. Look at the Serbs and the Croats. They are both Slavs.

Yet the war was hardly over Orthodox Christianity (Serbs) vs Catholic Christianity (Croats).

[luckylion]

That's true, but I don't know if Slavs are comparable to Arabs. There are different Slavic ethnic groups with very distinct languages. Arabs are one ethnic group with one language, but part of the Semitic family.

I suppose the Sunni/Shia conflict has an ethnic component with the Persians mostly being Shiites, while most Arabs are Sunni.

[jacobush]

Not convinced. According to arabs I know, they hardly understand each other at all if they are from to far away countries and never learned the "formal" form.

[meiraleal]

This is more about factions and power than religion.

[BlueTemplar]

Yes, and remember that Iraq was already bombed from the richest third world country to the middle ages by the US army in 1990, which then blockaded the country, resulting in an estimated death of half a million children in the following 5-6 years...

[yourbandsucks]

Free press checkpoint RE: Iraq. They shut the internet off there last week to try and suppress ongoing protests/unrest.

It's been reported a little, but hardly wall to wall like the Hong Kong thing. Why?

Nobody sent out orders to the Anglo press about what to report, yet we still have this very marked phenomenon where the reporting takes 'the side' of Anglo world power.

It's worth thinking about for anyone who salutes the flag in between platitudes about freedom.

[volkl48]

Is this a serious question?

Because Iraq is a chaotic mess where we are generally impressed if it isn't literally exploding. It's not that shutting the internet off is acceptable, it's that compared to everything else that happens/has happened in Iraq, that's insignificant.

We hold (supposedly) functional, developed places to a higher standard in what we expect from them, and it takes smaller acts of injustice or violence to be noteworthy.

[yourbandsucks]

So your argument is that all the people spreading the news of that kid in HK being shot were surprised?

They didn't sound surprised to me. They sounded elated and fulfilled that they were right about the 'bad guys'.

News stories spread because people want to click them. Nobody wants to hear about Iraq, it's a bummer and a reminder that they probably supported it.

The other, though? Tell me how bad they are!

[yorwba]

Nobody wants to hear about Iraq? Did you miss https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21140801 ?

[yourbandsucks]

Yeah, that's my point. That's actually the only place I saw it reported. I checked the WP, NYT and Fox News that day after seeing it here. Nothing. Maybe there was a story hidden in the back that I couldn't find, of course.

Compare to the absolute deluge of HK stories across all media sources.

[wayoutthere]

Americans generally don’t want to hear that our influence globally has been replaced by a combination of deference to autocratic regimes (the whole Russia / Turkey / Syria situation) or direct antagonism of rising powers (China, Iran).

I think Trump’s legacy will be as the symbol of American decline. He represents a hollowing out of core institutions that started long before him, but his presidency will be remembered as the time when the world realized American hegemony was over.

[thablackbull]

> Now she is thinking of giving up the citizenship she worked so hard to get, and moving back to an authoritarian China where guns and drugs are strictly forbidden – at least her son would be safe.

> To quote a friend, "all 'authoritarian' states (really, all states) distribute their 'authoritarianism' unevenly. that you aren't experiencing any right now doesn't mean it isn't being done, it just means you're not part of the demographic being targeted."

Freedom is also not distributed evenly. The powerful can use freedom as a means to their ends all the while justifying everyone else's failures as their own choice since they had the 'freedom' to achieve the same for themselves. Just my 2 cents.

As a soon to be expat to Singapore, I am in agreement with the first quote. While I can understand the values and culture here, I am also not too fond of unfettered freedom where people think public infrastructure belongs to them rather than as a shared good that everyone has the responsibility to take care of. Furthermore, the immediate reaction to any government involvement as 'socialism/communism' to shut down a discussion is honestly quite tiring and annoying now.

[johnisgood]

> where people think public infrastructure belongs to them rather than as a shared good that everyone has the responsibility to take care of.

I do not understand how they are mutually exclusive. I personally believe I am responsible for what belongs to me, and I take care of my belongings. Is it really just me? I do not believe that. Plus, if they do not care about their belongings, what makes you think they will care about them if you claim that it is a "shared good", or how is this supposed to work?

[wayoutthere]

People have different definitions of “self interest”, hence the tragedy of the commons (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons). It’s basically the problem government exists to mediate.