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by segfaultbuserr 2471 days ago
It's more complicated than that. I'd say the problem is not even scientific facts, but entirely political. The conclusions from my observations are:

1. Many ordinary people around the world only cares about living a better life, they do not care, or even are hostile to the welfare of the people faraway. If a policy inevitably affects them personally, many would boycott all actual policies and refuse the take any responsibility, e.g. "they are taking away our X", X can be an incandescent lightbulb, a car, a job, or the national economy.

You can argue how an incandescent lightbulb have better overall environmental records in its entire lifecycle, it's a matter subjected to objective data and their interpretation, but it's not what I meant - People often react strongly without doing any evaluation. Last time, I saw a post about how eBay banned shipping vacuum tubes because they don't want to spend time distinguishing the restricted mercury rectifiers and unrestricted tubes, a bad decision for the buyers. The posters in the comment section literally replied something like, "the evil liberals are banning vacuum tubes! The 100% of the RoHS regulations is bullshit!"

If such things can trigger strong reactions among a group of people, imagine what would happen if one wants to implement a policy, for, e.g. refugee settlement, or climate.

The fact that the privileges elites are not affected and not accountable by a policy makes the issue worse. First it strengthens the People vs. Establishment image that can be exploited by propagandists, Second, not being affected personally encourages bad policies or bad executions.

2. The political establishment has lost all credibility to many people. What is the reason for people to believe you when you have a government machine that has a long records of manipulating politics against foreign nations, conducting unethical human experiments, publishing media propaganda, ignoring the Constitute by setting up military base [0] in Guantanamo, establishing mass surveillance systems all over the world, and often acts in favor of private interests and other wrongdoings?

To many people, it means they would distrust the establishment entirely. If the governments spent millions of dollars on vaccination across the world, backed by WTO, to many people, why can't it be another huge conspiracy, e.g. mind control? Even if the establishment says "1 + 1 = 2", some people would see it as another huge conspiracy going on. Don't forget what I said before: You can argue rationally and even make good arguments, but people often react strongly without doing any evaluation.

And now the establishment is telling you that the global climate is in crisis and strong international efforts must be made globally. To many people, it instantly means an authoritarian or totalitarian "New World Order". It is backed by evidences from scientific findings, that are not intuitive, and not easily verified from personal experience, it would only make the people more suspicious. (Remember, in the 1920s, some high-profile physicists denied the existence of molecules, mainly because there was no "intuitive" way to see it yet. And ball lightning was not accepted until the 1970s. My point is that even the best people on evaluating evidence can reject something simply because it's not intuitive enough)

Also, "often acts in favor of private interests" is a bullet point. There are genuinely a lot of money to be made, a lot of interest to be gained, in the attempt of curbing climate change. It's entirely persuasive that a climate policy can be exploited in many malicious ways, and I'm sure at least one major corruption is not uncovered yet. Even if there isn't a huge conspiracy, smaller ones are bad enough, for example, the new-energy industry in China has a lot of bad actors, some of them only do it to get some subsidies, and others totally ignore the environmental regulations and creates highly toxic semiconductors waste, only to sell cheap solar panels.

Also, the hypocrisy of some elites - they are supposed to hold more responsibility over social issues, but some are actually the people who want to use the platform for personal benefits.

All of these don't do any good for PR. And not be mention that all of these can be weaponized by propagandists for different agendas, especially in the Internet age when information is readily available.

Finally, because of Observation No.1, "Many ordinary people do not care, or even are hostile to the welfare of the people faraway", even the "best" politicians selected by the people are likely to put the interest of one's nation above everything.

[0] Ironically, also because of Observation No.1, "Many ordinary people do not care, or even are hostile to the welfare of the people faraway", quite a few people think their government must be allowed to ignore the Constitution and continue the torture at Guantanamo.

3. Most subjects of science are not intuitive. What is being written in popular science and most textbooks is merely a caricature of the subject, far from the full picture, but is considered "correct enough" to be a useful mental model (or physical model) for public consumption. For a simple example, an electric circuit is inherently an electromagnetic phenomenon, yet the fairy tale of "the flow of electron" is commonly used, it's an incomplete and flawed model even at DC. We use it because most people, myself included, are incapable of thinking the physical picture of vector calculus and solve PDE mentally, let alone Quantum Field Theory, not to mention the "truth" is only sometimes relevant and useful.

Thus, if someone wants to engage in denialism or create FUD, one could just write something that is largely relevant but out-of-context, and say "you are being fooled, everything you know is wrong"! I suspect many pseudoscientific subjects frequently use this technique (or fell into it).

The sensationalized scientific reporting by the media is another bad offender, when you exaggerate everything and publicized inaccurate or false facts (e.g. today's weather is hot because of global warming!), it can seriously backfire. Also, to be honest, some famous people on the subject of environment (not necessarily climate) have a tendency to be alarmists that exaggerate a potential risk due to psychological biases, want public awareness, or simply due to limited data or foresight.

All of it, only give more power to the denialism campaign.

The fact that many findings heavily require interpretation doesn't help as well. Historically, there have been some instances that an interest group downplaying the harmful effect of a certain substances, highly-respected institutions creating false and unrepeatable results for power or fame, etc. So, in the eye of a suspicious citizen, the entire body of search on climate science is a huge lie. For example, the Climate Gate scandal is largely about the internal power struggle of a dozen of researchers within a institution, but many people reinterpret it and see it as the "evidence" that the entire climate science is a huge lie.

* So, what is the end-game? I suspect...

1. The result would be serious, a lot of people and places will suffer, but not as bad as the "the end of the world as we know it" painted by some sensationalized media in popular culture.

2. Superpowers and their citizens refuse to take any responsibility. Just like how Gulf War is broadcasted on TV, as long as they are doing well, it doesn't matter.

3. It's possible that the internal political corruptions do more harm than good and don't solve any real issues, but I hope not.

Currently, my belief is:

1. A huge amount of funding should go to carbon extraction projects, maybe allow private fundings. It might be the projects that would face the least public resistance. But thinking again, maybe it's not a good idea, as some people may call it the evil climate control system by the globalists that actually manufactures climate changes and must be stopped (just like how AIDS/HIV deniers said the treatment itself is the cause). Its cost-effectiveness and energy efficiency is also doubtful. I'm not sure...

2. Go nuclear. I'd love to see more AP1000 reactors. But thinking again, I'm not sure, maybe it's not a good idea. Although technically the system is sound, but the political resistance, strong pressure on safety, and mismanagement creates a lot of additional costs and safety risks. Not to mention the resistance of deep underground nuclear waste disposal repository is even higher, despite the fact that there are already thousands buckets of nuclear waste waiting for proper disposal, and without a repository, the risks for the environment is much more higher.

3 comments

You nailed down the issues that surround the topic of climate change very well. I wish there were more people that would consider the points you mentioned.

About the proposed actions to take: I think we need to bet even more heavily on nuclear fusion. It seems to be the only thing that could make carbon extraction sting less.

> nuclear fusion.

Fully agree.

But the meme of nuclear fusion has been around for nearly 50 years, yet nowhere close for practical utilization due to a lot of unseen technical problems.

I can only hope that we'll be a bit more lucky this time. And that the projects won't be ruined due to political struggles.

While I would totally love to see nuclear fusion be an option, I am afraid the timeline simply does not fit the challenge. Realistically, we won't be able to have nuclear fusion production-ready under less than 20 years, and most probably ~40 years.

If we do nothing in the next 20 years, it's not 2 degrees we are looking at, but 4+ degrees. The difference will be millions vs billions of deaths.

Wasn't the issue with incandescent lightbulbs more that they were (at least for a time) not as long lasting as their older counterparts, or that they'd generate less light? In that sense, people were more interested in a better product on a quality level than they were on the eco credentials of said product.

And that sort of thinking applies in a lot of other fields too, and often explains why products which are bad for privacy, not open source, centralised, walled gardens, seemingly poorly coded, etc do well. Because for most people, privacy is seen as less important than good UX/UI design and ease of use.

That's one of the big problems both the environmentalist and open source communities have to deal with; often their alternatives are (at the moment) worse for the average user/consumer, and they're not gonna sacrifice quality/ease of use/whatever over some philosophical message.

To bad you core premise is incorrect. CO2 is not the driver of global temperature changes. If it was then ice core samples would show this. The ice cores show something completely different. The ice core data shows that CO2 levels respond to temperature changes. So temperatures go up and then hundreds of years later CO2 levels go up. Temperatures go down and then hundreds of years later CO2 levels go down.

What does drive global temperatures then? It is that huge ball of gas and fire in the sky commonly called the Sun.

So other then your core assumption being wrong your write up sounds interesting.

Citations very much needed...
First, this phenomenon is well known, and it's easy to find citations if you look at the raw data [0]. BTW, the cause of the periodic change in temperature is believed to be the periodic variation of Earth orbital eccentricity, obliquity and precession [1][2], which causes the Earth to receive more or less solar radiation.

> So temperatures go up and then hundreds of years later CO2 levels go up.

> CO2 is not the driver of global temperature changes.

Next, OP's argument is not a a good one. If you know p->q, it doesn't imply q->!p. Thus I reject OP's argument as invalid, unless more information can be added to improve the argument. In fact, q->p is entirely possible. It's how an oscillator circuit works.

And here's an interesting case: Perhaps the planet Earth is more similar to an electronic circuit than most people think. Although the idea of orbit variation can explain a lot of things, including the δ¹⁸O time sequence (an indicator of temperature) obtained from the ice core records, but some serious issues remain unsolved. If you convert the δ¹⁸O time series into the frequency domain via FFT (i.e. putting it into a "spectrum analyzer"), you expect to see a 413,000 years cycle spike which is the periodic change of Earth's eccentricity. However, this is not detected. There are many hypotheses, but the most interesting one is: perhaps Earth's climate is a nonlinear system worked like a frequency modulator. It transforms some AM "carrier" signals, such as the 413,000 years cycle, with astronomical information, to a FM signal in the δ¹⁸O time sequence. This paper attempts to demodulate it with limited success [3].

See? The climate of Earth is a complex system with a myriad of positive and negative feedback mechanisms that are still not fully understood. So if the OP wants to claim that CO2 is not important to the global temperature, he should attack the climate models instead (I really hope the model is wrong and the reality is much brighter), not presenting oversimplified statements.

It's not worth debating the issue further, per Guidelines,

> Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle.

I shared the possibility that the Earth creates a FM signal that contains astronomical information, since it inspires intellectual curiosity, which is what the site exists for.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vostok_420ky_4curves_inso...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_feedback

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles

[3] https://web.archive.org/web/20091211025437/http://www.geolab...