[falcolas]

Yes, there have never been cases where young women have sought the company of older men in exchange for power and money. Never. The terms "gold digger" and "sugar daddy" were never invented for these kinds of exchanges.

As for 17, as someone in my 40's, I couldn't tell you the difference between someone who is 17, and someone who is 18, without them telling me or asking to look at their (hopefully non-forged) ID. If she lied (under coersion from Epstein), how could anyone have been able to tell?

[roguecoder]

You are describing sex work. Both of those are other terms for sex work. Which is fine once the sex workers are of age and haven’t been coerced, but neither of those was true here.

[falcolas]

Not just sex workers - some women marry just for access to the money and power (and I'm sure some men do as well).

But the coercion is very true, and hence my explicit callout. The question becomes did Minsky know that? Did he have any reason to suspect it?

[frabbit]

How would you know whether someone was coerced?

Would they tell you?

[onion2k]

as someone in my 40's, I couldn't tell you the difference between someone who is 17, and someone who is 18

I suggest you turn down any offers from billionaire convicted sex traffickers to go to their private island and meet young women then.

To be honest, you should probably turn down that sort of offer even if you're really good at telling how old people are.

[falcolas]

If I'm invited to a private island by a billionaire and offered a prostitute, and she confirms that she's 18 or older and here of her own free will, well, I imagine most unattached people would have trouble saying no in those circumstances.

For me, it would be too much like romancing my nieces, so I doubt I would take up the offer. In 30 years, who knows.

[onion2k]

she confirms that she's 18 or older and here of her own free will

The crux of Stallman's argument is that in that case you would be unable to tell if the woman was lying because Epstein would have coerced her. You can't trust what she says.

However, where you and Stallman differ is that you're suggesting is that Minsky probably said yes and did sleep with the woman, and therefore broke the law.

[falcolas]

And probably shouldn't/wouldn't be charged since he was criminally mislead in the process of doing due diligence.

And he shouldn't even be held morally wrong in this case either, if we assume that he did his due diligence and had what he viewed to be legal and consensual sex.

[onion2k]

And probably shouldn't/wouldn't be charged since he was criminally mislead in the process of doing due diligence.

Rape is a crime that carries strict liability (under US law); ignorance is not a valid defence.

[falcolas]

There’s a significant difference between willful ignorance and being mislead. The law accounts for this is most cases.

[jacquesm]

It would help a lot of you stopped projecting your own feelings on the subject onto Minsky.

[falcolas]

I'm human. I can't be unbiased. This witch hunt of Stallman for rationally exploring "what if" scenarios makes me upset.

I don't know Minsky, I don't care about Minsky. All I'm really trying to do is re-inforce how and why Stallman's exploration is reasonable and rational. And, since it's brought up repeatedly in this exploration, why even the courts consider the spirit of the law alongside the letter of the law.

[mvc]

Here's some free life advice. If you're 40, and wish to retain the respect of your peers, both are off-limits.

[falcolas]

I appreciate the wholly subjective and wholly unasked for advice. I'll be sure to give it the same weight as advice given by Hugh Heffner.

I've stated elsewhere I wouldn't be interested, but (not speaking of the Epstein/Minsky debate for a moment) who am I to judge someone for their consensual activities?

[aphextim]

>As for 17, as someone in my 40's, I couldn't tell you the difference between someone who is 17, and someone who is 18, without them telling me or asking to look at their (hopefully non-forged) ID. If she lied (under coersion from Epstein), how could anyone have been able to tell?

I've seen this same argument like 4-5 times now in this thread.

I agree, being able to tell the difference between 17 and 18 is difficult, however a line must be drawn and it seems that 18 is that line.

If a girl is 18 years and 1 day old, vs a girl who is 17 and 364, is there a big difference? No, however that is where society has drawn this line.

If you use the argument 18 looks like 17, then eventually people may say 17 looks like 16, 16 looks like 15 etc and is a slippery slope.

Also chances are the girls in question were most likely sex trafficked (Modern day slave trade by another name).

[falcolas]

As I've replied to peer comments, if Minsky couldn't rely on his eyes to judge her age, and she says she's 18 (and let's assume a scumlord billionare had the ability to provide falsified documentation backing it up, if he was really there to get leverage over his peers), how is someone to know differently?

It's quite rare that someone who did due dilligance and were criminally mislead to are charged for the crime.

[mr_spothawk]

> Also chances are the girls in question were most likely sex trafficked (Modern day slave trade by another name).

The women in question (those in contact with Epstein) were, in no way, a representation of chattel slavery, which is (i presume) what you mean by "modern day slave trade". They were neither 'owned' nor 'inheritable', they were also (by all reports) paid. Slaves are not paid.

The phrase "Modern Day Slave Trade" as it refers to sex work denigrates those who were forced into slavery by men with guns, as well as the subset of women and men who chose to participate in the sex work economy willingly, whether full-time or on-the-side.

[bairrd]

These women were sex trafficked.

[falcolas]

You're absolutely correct. Hence my comment about coercion. Did Minsky know that? Did he have any reason to suspect it?

[hunterjrj]

Come on now. What other plausible reason, besides being someone's daughter, would a girl that young have for being on that island with these old men? It doesn't take an MIT-calibre mind to ask this question.

[falcolas]

Money. The same reason a girl that young (let's say 18) might work for a strip club. Or in Nevada as a prostitute. Or as an escort.

[seanmcdirmid]

If money was involved, even if the clients were willing, it is considered a form of coercion under US law if the girls were under 18. The coercion label only seems to go away when they turn 18.

[setr]

and Stallman argued that morally, this is nonsense -- the moral aspect does not care for country and jurisdiction.