[mantas]

RMS tried to do opposite of trivialising - to get facts straight and put proper blame on each person involved.

Everyone includes justice. Including bad actors who shouldn't be blamed for what they didn't do. Judging everyone for they actually did is the true social justice.

[DanBC]

> to get facts straight

No, he did not. He tried to give the word "assault" a weird meaning, ignoring both the everyday English meaning of the word and the legal meaning of the word in a discussion about having sex with a coerced child arranged by a convicted sex offender.

[mantas]

AFAIK Epstein was not a convicted sex offender back when the original story happened.

Is it truly an assault if Minsky didn't know what and how someone was sent to him? If someone forces a non-obviously underage girl to come to you at a bar and seduce you, should you be tried for sexual assault?

[meheleventyone]

You are responsible for your own actions. In this case your own negligence led to you committing a crime. Just as if your actions negligently lead you to kill someone that is a crime.

If you have sex with someone that hasn’t or can’t give consent then yes you should be at the very least charged with a crime. If someone else coerced that result then they should be charged with a crime as well. That someone else is also responsible does not absolve you of the crime.

The bottom line is that you don’t have to have sex with someone.

[mantas]

And killing-by-negligence is persecuted entirely differently than killing-by-intent.

If someone gives you a consent because they were forced by someone else to give you a consent, who is to blame? How deep do you have to go to ensure that the consent is true consent?

[meheleventyone]

Note I said charged. I suspect if you can honestly make the case that you thought there was genuine consent that fact would be taken into account in the decision to prosecute and in sentencing.

If you are concerned about whether consent has been given genuinely or not I’d recommend slowing right down and doing more to establish that there is legitimate consent or not have sex with that person at all. There is no requirement to have sex.

Like if you’re in the situation as a gone to seed old guy who is approached by a teenager at a party it’s not rocket science to maybe think twice about having sex with them.

[mantas]

Not only charged. There's quite a bit of difference in public perception and how you're treated. E.g. if you hunted someone down and killed in called blood or someone happened to die because of your neglect. E.g. as engineer or doctor who did a mistake.

[DanBC]

> If someone forces a non-obviously underage girl to come to you at a bar and seduce you, should you be tried for sexual assault?

In England this is definitely illegal.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/47

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/53A

[Sacho]

Not so definitely, from reading the links.

The first link describes some form of sexual offense, but is only strict liability if the person is under 13. Quoting the link:

"A person(A) commits an offense if..."

"(c)either—

(i)B is under 18, and A does not reasonably believe that B is 18 or over, or

(ii)B is under 13."

The second link is an anti-prostitution offense, which does not match the theoretical example or Minsky's case, and is punishable by fine.

[globuous]

Yes, this i would love to know. Is it? And what if you card her (knowing that if she’s in the bar in the US, she must be 21, otherwise she’s acting illegally), and she shows you a convincing fake id?

[mantas]

And if you don't card her, is it you or lousy bouncer to blame?