[carlmr]

I think this is almost a phenomenon. Europeans have trouble imagining the vastness and untouchedness of American national parks.

In Europe almost all hiking trails are close to civilization and well-marked. If you expect the same in America you're in for a surprise.

[bedhead]

I just returned from a three week RV trip to some of the national parks out west, including Death Valley. Two of the things I noticed were (1) Europeans outnumbered Americans in the RV parks and (2) Europeans seemed far more inclined to break the national park rules. At one point we were in a guided jeep tour in Canyonlands which is some seriously treacherous driving on cliffside switchbacks. An Escalade sped by us at one point and we were all like WTF these people are insane...it's a cliff!! We caught up to them at an overlook (the Thelma and Louise Overlook) and our guide got out to scold them. He came back and was like, "No surprise, they're Italian." He went on to explain that 90% of the issues they see with people acting recklessly were Europeans who didn't seem to comprehend how dangerous these places can be.

[sizzzzlerz]

I've been visiting Parks throughout the west for decades and have noticed the same thing. Its a virtual United Nations when you go into the Visitor's Center, gift shop, or restaurant. Personally, I think its great and love to show off what the US has that no other nation does. But, things like abusing the wildlife, putting themselves or others a risk because of stupid (and illegal) behaviors, and generally disrespecting the Park push me close to the edge. That kind of behavior isn't tolerated in the monuments and cathedrals in Europe; don't do it here.

[celticninja]

Well before you pay yourself on the back too much, we have similar issues with American tourists in Europe. Almost like assholes are noticeable everywhere and this is independent of their nationality.

[bedhead]

There were multiple times when we were either in a park visitor center or the RV park's pool and I realized I was the only American. It was all (in order) German, Dutch, and French. Everyone was really friendly and we made some good friends at the pools. But we kept noticing all the people doing dumb stuff at the national parks weren't Americans. Feeding squirrels, flying drones, climbing on stuff that wasn't safe, etc. It kinda became a running joke.

[ddrdrck_]

If as you said Americans are outnumbered by European people it is not very surprising that most people spot doing silly things are European and not American ...

[driverdan]

Most of the stupid things I've seen done in parks are by Americans. I encountered one European flying a drone in a national park. I told them the law and he stopped flying it and thanked me. That said I tend to avoid popular parks during tourist season because I hate crowds in outdoor places.

[radicalbyte]

I've spent a decent amount of time in the parks in South Africa and the people doing stupid and dangerous things were either American or Chinese.

The locals were well known for drink driving and driving too fast (they treat it like the British treat the Spanish islands and Amsterdam).

[ceejayoz]

In fairness, Italians have a reputation for driving dangerously when they know the territory, too.

[donretag]

I remember being 18, in Italy, driving my crappy Fiat as fast as I can down an Italian highway. Fifth gear, gas pedal to the max. And I was still getting passed by faster cars. Italians just drive faster. :)

[davidw]

This kind of road is reasonably common in Italy:

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.8513921,11.3773108,3a,75y,24...

I'm not ashamed to admit that it scared the crap out of me, and my wife (who I completely trust) was driving.

[donretag]

What's wrong with that road? Seems just like your standard mountain pass road to me. :) Those switchbacks are tight, so trucks are probably not allowed on that road.

I lived somewhat close to there, but not close enough to know that exact area. I am now an avid road cyclist that loves to do big climbs. That road is not even that bad https://veloviewer.com/segments/4090708

I do similar climbs here in California.

[davidw]

It's super tight and super cliffy, and it would be excellent on a road bike if you don't mind heights. I do, though.

I don't think I've seen anything in California quite that sketchy. Maybe this one because it's really narrow:

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8803894,-120.2966256,3a,90y,...

That would also make for a great ride.

[Someone]

”Europeans outnumbered Americans in the RV parks”

I don’t find that _that_ surprising.

Air travel is dirt-cheap, there are more Europeans than Americans (taking the relatively richer north: Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden, and the UK combined already have 295M. That doesn’t include the 60M Italians, 45M Spaniards, 38M Poles, 10M Portuguese, etc.), Europeans have more holidays, and many of them cannot run out of sick days, so that they don’t have to use their holidays when sick.

I also would _guess_ the lower wealth inequality makes more European than American pensioners wealthy enough to make such a trip.

That’s offset by Americans having a higher average income than Europeans (but income inequality being higher, it wouldn’t surprise me if more Europeans can afford to make the journey), and those parks being closer to where American live than to where Europeans live (but the USA being large and air travel being cheap, I doubt that matters much)

[kpennell]

yep, confirming all my biases here.

[marvin]

I don’t think it’s necessarily a Europe thing, it’s just as likely a tourist thing. When you’re a city-dwelling tourist, you don’t know danger and certainly not the local dangers. Dangers at home are considered part of your upbringing, overgeneralized as absolute facts of the world, while dangers elsewhere are unknown and unexpected.

I’ve seen the same in Norway; tourists from all over the world getting lost in the mountains, caught out in bad weather or early nightfall with poor clothing and footwear, lost at sea in quickly-changing weather, fall off unexpected cliffs, hit by falling glacier ice, swept into the freezing ocean by waves, killed by avalanche, snowed in on the road etc.

[arethuza]

I think its mostly just a "not a local" thing - I've met quite a few people in the Scottish mountains who had got quite a shock at weather conditions even though our hills are tiny compared to the Alps or elsewhere.

A 1000m hill can't be dangerous, right?

[LorenPechtel]

I will second this. I hike and pretty much I can divide the stupidity into two classes:

1) People who are utterly ill-equipped and know nothing. Almost all of these are within a mile of the trailhead. They are very unlikely to experience worse than an unpleasant time.

2) People who are underequipped and know little of the local situation. These are almost all tourists. (To date I have encountered only one exception--two guys 4 miles and ~2,500' in, water bottles and big, heavy sticks that were worse than useless as trekking poles. Fortunately I got them turned around, had they continued they would have been out of water, risking hypothermia and have had no chance of getting back to civilization before dark--and they had no light.) The ultimate example was a guy from Florida. He was asking me for navigation advice, attempting to reach the highest local summit. It was his 4th attempt, the previous three were blocked by snow. By unreliable reporting there were several feet of snow on the summit at that time, it certainly wasn't considered passable. He was asking me about a third trail shown on his map. Really now, an arrow-straight trail in steep mountains?? That's the boundary line for the ski resort! No GPS, no poles, if he by some miracle summitted he would have had no chance of getting down before nightfall.

[mturmon]

Smart observation. Relatedly, I've wandered around dodgy neighborhoods late at night while visiting foreign capitals much more than I'd do in the city where I live.

[sizzzzlerz]

A lot of it is the uniqueness of the American west. I think that Europeans are infatuated with the John Wayne westerns and Louis L'Amour books and think of the parks as just more remote Disneylands where nothing can hurt you. I understand that it's a popular thing to visit DVNP in friggin' August when the temps reach 125 degrees or higher. And then, like the German family, go off to remote regions of the park unprepared and with no reasonable hope of rescue if something bad happens. There have been several books written about deaths that have occurred in the Parks, most of which happen because those involved did not respect nor understand the environment into which they were going.

[deep_merge]

Is there any data related Parks injuries/deaths that includes nationality? If not, this thread is all anecdote.

[carlmr]

I couldn't find any, but I think it would be an interesting hypothesis to study.

[kpennell]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_of_Kris_Kremers_and_Lis...

This is a really similar one. REALLY SAD.

[rconti]

I actually found the trails in Norway to be surprisingly UN-marked, natural, and, frankly, more difficult than advertised. They'd tend to just go straight up a cliff face rather than being curated, built, and maintained.

[carlmr]

I've been hiking in a few places in Europe but not Norway, that may well be

[vegardx]

Boy are you in for a surprise if you go by that assumption in parts of Europe.

[henvic]

Four years ago, I made a huge mistake that maybe almost costed my life. I went to California's Palm Desert desert - the weather was about 125ºF. I went out walking, unprepared.

It was one of my first experience outdoors in the wild and pristine nature (besides some guided visits to Brazilian forests I guess). The only other meaningful experience back then was going to major attractions in Yosemite a couple of days before.

I dropped off a friend at Palm Springs airport as she had to go back to her life in NYC earlier, and continued the trip by myself. Afterward driving for a little bit, I arrived in a spot in Joshua Tree where the parking lot closes during the summer, and you have to park along the road, but there were quite a few people out there.

There were two trails at that spot. One was close, but the other was far away. I made the first quite fast. There was an oasis there — a wonderful place. I figured [wrongly] that I could make the second trail as well. The trail signs didn't indicate that the second was quite far away. Something like 5mi, I guess. Also, there was a small sign saying the trail was closed due to hazard conditions (heat). I missed it and only saw it on my way back (the sign was not in place due to wind... I guess).

I had bought plenty of water but was stupid enough to leave it in the car and started walking the second trail.

I always knew where I was. I wasn't lost at all. However, it was really hot, and I was afraid I'd pass out anytime after a while, and decided it was time to head back. I believed I could return to safety really fast, as the trail seemed to be almost parallel to the road I parked my car, but there were large rock fragments, and I couldn't safely reach the road. I almost became desperate and started crying a little thinking I was minutes away from death. There weren't even any bushes to protect me from the elements. I tried to call 911 to share my location and ask them to send someone over if I pass out or don't return their call soon, but it was to no avail as there was no cellphone coverage.

Once I finally found a spot I could safely climb, I did so and started walking in the side of the road as I wanted to be seen by anyone, in case I collapsed. A car passed by me as I was 100m away from mine. I decided not to bother. I regret it.

I spent a whole day recovering in the hotel room afterwards.

Looking in retrospective, I should have never gone on a hike without knowing exactly what would be expected and with no water. If I ever go out to the middle of nowhere, I'm bringing a radio, satellite phone, or both. Plus, letting someone else know about my plans and location.

In the afternoon of the following day, I went to Joshua Tree, and got lost-ish just after sunset. But I was better preppared and found my way back in 10min. Still, it was something I regret a lot. Here is how I found myself: my Sony Experia GPS app failed on me (now, thankfully back to the iPhone), and I couldn't see anyone anymore... so I grabbed my MacBook Pro, fired Lightroom, imported a photo of the parking lot I took with the camera, saw the GPS coordinates, and used my Canon 6D camera as a GPS unit (I'd walk trying to find my latitude, then my longitude, until I got it right - this all while opening/closing the embedded GPS debugging tool that doesn't update the location automatically)...

I'm usually not reckless with anything, and these were exceptions in my whole life. I have revisited them, and some other dangerous places, and I always do my best to keep safe - after these experiences safer than most, perhaps.